Primals and Egis

[Wolfandre]

For example, I could have sworn Ifrit-egi called out a bunch of fire sprites during our fight, but not in the story (or hard mode). Obviously they should be able to, but the choose to against the summoner, but not against the group.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Fire Sprites that were in that fight were naturally drawn to the rampant aether in the surrounding area. Could have even been a backlash and formed from said aether. I don't think they were summoned, per se.

Also, Moose, I am actually in line with you way of thinking on aether and the primals. Just one thing bothers me: The primals have memories.

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

I dunno. Part of this is sleepy-Wolf talking, and the other part is me not having full access to the cutscenes to back myself up. I'll do more theorizing over here. *wave*

[Norondor]

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

[Skies]

Norondor take note that the Scholar fairies (in particular Eos I believe) also have memories of their own. They are summons like the others but as moose said, it seems like the ones who devised them found a way to store their memories in the job crystals.

Which is actually something that fits the primals and their memories. Notice how every beastman camp has this gigantic aetheryte. Who is to say that, perhaps even as a safety measure to ensure continued existance, the primals haven't devised such things to maintain their particular aetherial essence safe and moderately cohese after a defeat?

[Toranja]

They don't just have memories. They have "conversations" while in the aether. Ifrit makes it clear.

http://youtu.be/GR_E5qtgpGs

They have conciseness of their own and an independent existence.

[Anonymoose]

They don't just have memories. They have "conversations" while in the aether. Ifrit makes it clear.

Possibly. They clearly do have memories, but this conversation with the Paragon could have simply been during a past summoning. This quest is almost identical to its Version 1.0 equivalent, but in that version we didn't know what the echo was or who gave it to us or what ascians were. We were simply investigating the "sighting of a paragon" in the Amalj'aa's domain. They might have simply had the conversation earlier.

My theory definitely lacks some of the specifics I'd call required, though. Mostly, I'm just musing :P

[shinros]

Funny enough I was hoping that the summoner quests would give us more lore on the primals and egi's their history etc. Oh well who knows they may expand the job quests when they add new job skills.

Plus I would not call it a stench in the quest it says when you beat a primal some of their aetheric essence is trapped in your body. I think its similar to what ultima weapon did to the primals but smaller I mean looking at how they die and all that aether spilling out everywhere not all of it goes back to the land (going by the lore that is said in the monk quest and the monk does something similar to power up and get stronger) so the people present during the defeat absorb some of the aether that is spilling out when they "die". The npc who helps you become a summoner pretty much says you got a piece of them in your body a small piece and that is what you summon. So everyone who beats a primal(who survives) has a piece of the primal within in them sitting there waiting to be summoned.

I also think they are aware considering how titan protects you without you even summoning him and the npc during quest says you have to show them your strength for them to accept you as their master. I also bet they are pissed off at you kicking their butts when you first summon them so that can be another motivator for them trying to kill you.

[Wolfandre]

You'll have to pardon the terminology, as I was going mostly off of the quest I most recently completed and remembered more about (the Amal beast tribe quest).

...And, in any case, I just like my version better. Right or wrong.

[Niniyo]

Funny enough I was hoping that the summoner quests would give us more lore on the primals and egi's their history etc. Oh well who knows they may expand the job quests when they add new job skills.

Yeah. I'm glad that we can all share our thoughts at least. There are many different little points, subtle things at times, but I think that it's helped me gain a better understanding than I had initially at least. =)

[Niniyo]

I also think they are aware considering how titan protects you without you even summoning him...

That's a good point, and something I forgot about o.o

It's particularly curious though, and it brings up a question for me.

So we have Tristan who's summoned Ifrit-egi, and we have Titan-egi suddenly appearing to protect you from Hellfire.

But here's the thing. Titan-egi protects you, which makes sense, and follows from defeating them and having them accept you, but Ifrit-egi is attacking you, despite the fact that you'd also defeated him, and he's accepted you.

Is this because Ifrit-egi is a /different/ Ifrit-egi, and so Tristan's has never fought you before, and so has no loyalties to you?
OR
Is it the "same" Ifrit-egi, but, having been summoned by Tristan, his loyalties lie solely with him, and so he says "fight" and Ifrit-egi fights?

[Wolfandre]

Is this because Ifrit-egi is a /different/ Ifrit-egi, and so Tristan's has never fought you before, and so has no loyalties to you?
OR
Is it the "same" Ifrit-egi, but, having been summoned by Tristan, his loyalties lie solely with him, and so he says "fight" and Ifrit-egi fights?

This leads me to believe my earlier theory again. Thanks!

Why, if we don't have personal Egis, would Ifrit-Egi attack us? Wouldn't that conscious, semi-intelligent portion of Fire-aspected aether acknowledge us as a superior and halt its attack? Could we have a command war, each trying to yell at Ifrit-Egi to kill one another?

Also, if you happened to use your own Ifrit-Egi in the fight...I dunno. I'm skeptical, but I'm still in line with believing the Egis are self-made. There's also too much we don't know about primals and the aether to draw any real conclusions.