Samurai, why Tanks?

[MomoOG]

Are you seriously trying to logically explain why Ninja, historically the equivalent to a modern spy, should be a tank instead? FF11 made dumb mistake with ninja that we don't need repeated. Maybe Samurai shouldn't be a tank but Ninja sure as hell should not be a tank over Samurai.

[Deculture]

I have no idea if SAM was originally designed to be a tank in 11, but I do know SAMs that were properly geared with a proper haste TP build set + STR WS set blew everyone out of the water when it came to DPS parses up until Abyssea. GTK for errything and then you just pulled out your Tomoe for flying targets and spammed Pentas into it.

[Euphe]

If they made SAM a tanking class wouldn't it be a copy of WARs? I mean they use katanas which are two handed weapons and dress in heavy armor. We have that already. I guess they could make SAM evasive tanks like they would NINs in the end... Maybe make them a Dexterity based tank? Just throwing ideas out there.

[abzoluut]

In FFXI SAM was brought in to be a tank.. Ninja was brought in to be a dps... It did not turn out that way.

If you take a close look at earlier FF series, you'll see that SAM actually is more of a tank. There are numerous threads regarding this matter on this forum. You'll find them.

I personally like to have another tank, one that tanks completely different than the current ones (maybe a parry/evasion tank).

[Kitru]

Samurai - brought a big sword for 1 hit kills, walked around in cool looking armor but was definatly not designed for any long drawn out fights, nor for deflecting many blows, but to kill before killed.

Apparently you only know what a samurai is through anime because Iaido (i.e. the practice of drawing a sword to make a single definitive attack) is really not something that was done in real combat; it was a meditative and/or ritualistic practice. Assuming that you want to abandon the historical role of the samurai as either mounted archers or heavy cavalry using spears/lances (much the same as European knights), the most common/famous schools of Kenjutsu (i.e. Japanese sword combat) actually emphasized dual wielding, with the katana in the main hand and wakizashi in the offhand (the pair of which were referred to as the daisho and were the trademark equipment of a samurai) while others emphasized a two handed grip that evolved into kendo. Neither of the overarching styles of kenjutsu emphasized one-hit kills, mainly because they are so laughably rare to actually get in a fight (unless you're fighting someone incompetent) that you would be an idiot to only ever take those.

Virtually all styles of Kenjutsu emphasized *defense* as opposed to offense (compare this to the German school of two-handed sword combat called Langschwert that emphasized offense *entirely*) mainly because even a slight blow could be highly debilitating and end with you dying later on. Little blows that whittled your opponent down were what won you fights, not the big ones (which were really just finishing attacks when you had already beaten your opponent to the extent that they could no longer defend themselves). Miyamoto Mushashi (i.e. the most famous/successful/prolific Japanese swordsman of all time) created a school that utilizes a technique/stance for fighting multiple opponents that have surrounded you wherein the combatant spins in a circle with the blades on spread apart so that you can defend against as many attacks as possible (interestingly enough, this technique emphasized parrying with whichever blade was closest to the target and following it up with an attack from the far weapon as you spun around; the constant motion gives you the momentum to quickly follow up a parry with a counter).

As to the armor, you're similarly wrong. Armor that isn't intended to deflect or absorb blows isn't armor; it's clothes you're expected to die in. It wasn't full plate on the scale of European armors (not because they didn't want to be covered in solid plates of metal armor, but because Japan is not an iron rich land mass and plate armor takes a crapton of iron to make; what little iron Japan did have was *really* low quality as well), but it was still designed to take blows. The flamboyant appearance was both functional (it was lacquered to protect the metal and leather from rust/deterioration due to Japan's moist climate) and psychological (the kabuto helm was designed to instill fear in opponents, hence the demonic appearance of most face masks).

Ninja - known for being hard to catch and evading attacks which makes a lot more sense for a tank. Also one of these guys would actually have the stamina, manouverability, and dexterity to keep fighting for a long time, without relying on blocking like PLD or just manning it up like a WAR.

Ninja weren't ever known for being anything remotely close to being a tank. A ninja that had to fight had failed at the first thing about being a ninja: blending in and not being seen. Historically, ninja dressed in peasant clothes so that no one would notice them. The idea that ninja dressed in what we now think of as "ninja garb" is actually a modern invention that grew out of kabuki theater (the get up was actually what was worn by stagehands so that they would blend in with the backdrop and not be noticed by the audience; any ninja or assassin that was supposed to pop up out of nowhere would be wearing the same stuff as the stage hands so that the audience wouldn't realize that they were actually an actor).

Ninjitsu is as much a combat style as it is a movement style like Parkour. For combat, Ninjitsu emphasized fast surprise attacks and ambush and instructed you to *never* take part in any engagement that could become drawn out (i.e. hit and run) because drawn out fights would alert the guards and get the lot of you outnumbered, cut off from escape, and killed/captured. There were a substantially larger number of techniques for moving about unseen/unheard at a variety of speeds in a variety of situations. Ninja didn't even use katanas, largely because they were so bulky (katana are actually remarkably heavy swords that were relatively long for a weapon designed to be able to be used in one hand), but also because they were single purpose; the "ninja sword" that people think of was actually a short (averaged around 1.5-2') straight (katana/wakizashi were curved) single edged blade which allowed for easier concealment as well as additional uses for the scabbard (they were open on both sides so that they could be used as a blowgun or breathing tube for hiding underwater; some were reinforced to be used as rungs on a ladder). The other token ninja weapon (besides the shuriken, of which there were 3 types, none of which were anywhere *near* the massive things that popular culture evolved them into) was the kusarigama (a chain with a weight on one end and a scythe on the other) that was another case of "tool and weapon combined".

The only possible way that you could envision Ninja as a tank class is if you watch Naruto and think that *those* are actually ninjas rather than a massive caricature of a single aspect of them.

Ninja were spies and assassins trained in espionage and unfair tactics. Most of the time they killed without ever getting within arms reach of their target by poisoning their food/water/etc., and, when they *did* have to fight, they always tried to do it on their own terms and ran away from anything that could possibly be seen as a fair fight (why risk dying when you could run to live another day). Most of their jobs, in fact, involved stealing information rather than engaging in any kind of combat. Most of the time, they hid in plain sight rather than running around in dark clothes (black actually makes you stand out at night because you're darker than your surroundings) with face masks.

Samurai, on the other hand, were trained warriors who stood on the battle field in flamboyant armor so as to attract attention and instill fear in their opponents. They were trained to fight off multiple opponents and engage in drawn out battles. They were supposed to be brave and stoic, even in the face of outrageous odds. They were huge fans of duels and other one-on-one confrontations (Miyamoto Musashi was reknowned to have taken part in over 60 duels).

In no way should ninjas ever be tanks; the very idea is in conflict with what a ninja actually is (and, thankfully, the ARR devs have actually said that ninja will never be a tank in this game). Unless the devs think that samurai should run around in cloth armor they wore in court instead of the lamellar that they wore in combat (which would be like having a knight running around in a tunic and tights instead of heavy armor), samurai makes a *much* stronger case as a tank rather than a DPS.

Also, random point of interest, the code of Bushido and much of the "historical" descriptions of samurai that many people bring up in reference to samurai in the current age was actually a modern invention by the Japanese Empire at the turn of the century when nationalistic fervor took hold of the nation and samurai were hailed as examples of Japanese chivalry rather than the roving warlords, culturally protected bullies, or celebrated and often corrupt policemen that they actually were historically (similar to how European knights are generally thought of in the sense of the Arthurian Tales rather than the people that had a "Thirty Years War" and a "Hundred Years War"). The *ideal* of the samurai was relatively constant (honorable warrior in service to his fuedal master), but, in practice, the ideal was the exception rather than the rule.

[Merylx]

I dont know what version of 11 you played but these were never things.

Troll, it has to be.

[Megido]

Are you seriously trying to logically explain why Ninja, historically the equivalent to a modern spy, should be a tank instead?

That wasnt really the point of my post. But if we get an evasion tank, it would make the most sense to me if it was on a ninja, not on a samurai. And for samurai to be dps. Also well, evasion tanking seems a lot more unique than another parry/block job or not-nerfed WAR lifesteal tank.
I see this discussion all the time and the only reasoning i ever got was 'cool armor' or 'just cause'.

And yes when i heard people talk about ninja tanks i raised an eyebrow as well but it still makes more sense than a samurai. The lesser evil, one could say.

SAM was originally designed as a parry tank. They had high EVA too and then later Seigan etc.

DRK started out as a fragile DD but with the addition of high end PDT, Apoc drain/haste and dread spikes it was the ideal tank in 11.

There we go, now it makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

[Thriar]

Why are warriors tanks? It's the same concept.

[Megido]

The only possible way that you could envision Ninja as a tank class is if you watch Naruto and think that *those* are actually ninjas rather than a massive caricature of a single aspect of them.

I liked this little snippet. Isnt that the show with people summoning fireballs and monsters? Sorry but that would fit really well into final fantasy, especially since those things are already here in the game. It would be really unthinkable that a Ninja would have a skill to increase evasion by 40% amirite? Featherfeet, that's sooooo naruto.

I'll read the rest when i can get past the parts with snide little undertones.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

Holding enmity is the polar opposite of what a Ninja is.