New Inner Beast DR.. the end all be all skill

[Vortok]

Heaven forbid people have to play well and coordinate with their party in order to complete the hardest content available.

[Leiron]

Heaven forbid people have to play well and coordinate with their party in order to complete the hardest content available.

Heaven forbid you actually understood the point of my response without immediately smashing your keyboard while working with your own ideas.

The point was that by nerfing PLD, you would be making the content much more difficult than originally intended because the disparity between WAR and PLD in 2.0 is very large.
This is why you don't see anyone doing WAR/WAR.
Doing such a nerf would essentially make it WAR/WAR, and no one did that because it was much more difficult than necessary without being almost entirely decked out in gear.

Coordination has little to do with anything when the tools you are given are too weak.

[Paikis]

Heaven forbid you actually understood the point of my response without immediately smashing your keyboard while working with your own ideas.

The point was that by nerfing PLD, you would be making the content much more difficult than originally intended because the disparity between WAR and PLD in 2.0 is very large.
This is why you don't see anyone doing WAR/WAR.
Doing such a nerf would essentially make it WAR/WAR, and no one did that because it was much more difficult than necessary without being almost entirely decked out in gear.

Coordination has little to do with anything when the tools you are given are too weak.

Except we know that Coil was balanced around Warriors tanking. So bringing PLD down to the level of WAR would actually be exactly how difficult it was intended to be. Buffing WAR instead was a mistake, although I understand why they did it, that doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

[Leiron]

Except we know that Coil was balanced around Warriors tanking.

Um...no we don't.
There was never any statement made by the devs that the content was designed around WAR.
Heck if anything, everything points to it being designed around WAR/PLD.
You really need to stop making such a statement when there is literally NOTHING to support it.

So bringing PLD down to the level of WAR would actually be exactly how difficult it was intended to be. Buffing WAR instead was a mistake, although I understand why they did it, that doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

Except it wasn't a mistake, it was a good idea.
WAR did NOT scale with content appopriately.
So even if they left it alone, as content became harder, and incoming damage grew, WAR would fall further and further behind because it did not scale at the same speed as the content.

PLD was designed well in 2.0.
WAR was not designed properly, that is the reality.


@Exstal: It makes me think they tested the content in better gear than what would be available to player's, so it hid the problem that was there.
If both PLD and WAR are in ilvl90 gear, they're already overgearing the content so any disparity won't show.
Such a disparity won't show unless the content is actually difficult enough to bring out these issues.

[SwordCoheir]

@Exstal: It makes me think they tested the content in better gear than what would be available to player's, so it hid the problem that was there.

That's probably what happened. CT was supposed to be released along with everything else at launch, and since it was supposed to be the bridge in gear between Coil and DL/Titan it would make sense they would test Coil with ilv80 and 90 gear like intended.

[Giantbane]

Um...no we don't.
There was never any statement made by the devs that the content was designed around WAR.
Heck if anything, everything points to it being designed around WAR/PLD.

They may have originally intended it to be beat with WAR/PLD. However, most of the stuff they've said about WAR & PLD in coil hints to them playing a lot more WAR when testing/designing it than PLD. They kept insisting WAR was just fine and performing like it should. Then they come out and say they're buffing WAR, but only because PLD is performing too well. They actually never mentioned anything about scaling to my knowledge.

Let's recap:

WAR just right
PLD too strong

so if WAR is just right (and find me the post where they said WAR was too weak), then coil was probably supposed to be as hard as it is for groups that use WAR tanks.

@Exstal: It makes me think they tested the content in better gear than what would be available to player's, so it hid the problem that was there.
If both PLD and WAR are in ilvl90 gear, they're already overgearing the content so any disparity won't show.
Such a disparity won't show unless the content is actually difficult enough to bring out these issues.

They said there were times in certain fights where the tank was supposed to die. The PLD does not die in those situations when he's supposed to. Nothing about that says they were testing in ilvl80 gear.

Hell, if they thought there was just no way the PLD could survive in those fights, I'm more inclined to think they were testing while using AF gear.

[Kitru]

They said there were times in certain fights where the tank was supposed to die. The PLD does not die in those situations when he's supposed to.

I think it's more apt to say that there were conditions that were supposed to be wipe conditions that weren't acting as wipe conditions. For Caduceus, since slimes still spawn after split, I'm pretty sure the intended strat was for players to continue feeding the split snakes, and that having more than 2 stacks was supposed to be a wipe condition. I'm also pretty sure that the devs intended for the dreads in t4 to be a wipe condition when they'd eaten multiple bugs; the spawn positioning and general set up of the rest of the fights (the MT and OT grab and separate portions of the phase's spawn) suggests that the bugs were probably intended to be kited by the OT while the MT handled the dread. Intentionally feeding bugs to dreads probably wasn't something they thought players would do, especially since it heals them (which means absolutely nothing when the dread hasn't been touched by the DPS yet).

[Vortok]

Heaven forbid you actually understood the point of my response without immediately smashing your keyboard while working with your own ideas.

They stated that PLD was performing better than they expected it would in Coil. So regardless of how simple it should've been to catch "use cooldowns to not die" they expected it to be tougher than it has turned out to be.

My comment was also aimed at the game as whole. There are quite a few "oh, that horrific mistake didn't happen, continue the fight" buttons that are available throughout the various classes. People can get away with playing extremely sloppy 99% of the time so there's no incentive for most to improve. We've all heard the stories of WARs attempting Titan/Coil and how half the party was rotating Eye for an Eye, Virus, Blinds, etc to help keep the tank up. That type of coordination and teamwork should've been the norm, but I guess it was too hard.

So now we begin the power creep, not that it wasn't already in full effect with speedruns being the norm for months.

[Giantbane]

They stated that PLD was performing better than they expected it would in Coil. So regardless of how simple it should've been to catch "use cooldowns to not die" they expected it to be tougher than it has turned out to be.

My comment was also aimed at the game as whole. There are quite a few "oh, that horrific mistake didn't happen, continue the fight" buttons that are available throughout the various classes. People can get away with playing extremely sloppy 99% of the time so there's no incentive for most to improve. We've all heard the stories of WARs attempting Titan/Coil and how half the party was rotating Eye for an Eye, Virus, Blinds, etc to help keep the tank up. That type of coordination and teamwork should've been the norm, but I guess it was too hard.

So now we begin the power creep, not that it wasn't already in full effect with speedruns being the norm for months.

But I think there's something good to take away from all this. That the type of coordination you're talking about was the original intent for difficulty. They took the easy route and just buffed WAR for now (because seriously, can you imagine the sea of tears that would flow from every FC that currently relies upon PLD tanks in coil?) for now. But I'm expecting coil in 2.2 to be something more along the difficulty of running double WAR in 2.0.

[Vortok]

But I think there's something good to take away from all this. That the type of coordination you're talking about was the original intent for difficulty. They took the easy route and just buffed WAR for now (because seriously, can you imagine the sea of tears that would flow from every FC that currently relies upon PLD tanks in coil?) for now. But I'm expecting coil in 2.2 to be something more along the difficulty of running double WAR in 2.0.

Yeah, we can hope newer content is balanced around their updated understanding of how much punishment the tanks can take. If anything, the item level requirements (as much as I hate anything remote similar to the toxicity that was gearscore) of the Extreme Primals in relation to everything else is a hopeful sign.

They feel 57 is enough for Titan HM (with good players, it sure is with room to spare) and Titan was a pretty fun fight to learn - I did it with WARs that weren't even full DL, just required healers to be on the ball. CT only requires 50 and drops ilvl 80, though I imagine there's a larger gap there be design. Extreme Primals go from 65-70 as their starting point, so hopefully those will be quite fun to learn. And the tuning of turn 6 of Coil and beyond. They've certainly shown they can design interesting content, it's just irritating how much fluff that has to be waded through to get there.