Temporary HP Tank

[Lex_Luger]

Really wish that ANY of the WAR's that post here and talk about how they are one of the chosen few who actually know how to play the class would make their achievements public. I guess people are afraid of getting called on their BS.

[Eightbit]

Correct, and yes to an extent percent mitigation is better than fixed soak, but conceptually that is the difference between PLD and WAR. Paladins is the mitigation tank, Warrior is the soak tank. That's why I'm a bit concerned with the 2.1 changes adding so much mitigation to the Warrior.

True, and to an extent warrior is losing its "flavor" to be more paladin tasting. But at the end of it all, damage is damage and both have to deal with it. I'm a little sad to see the hp bit of warriors go, though it just isn't possible to really balance well in this set up right now. My stance now is that while both will become mitigation, their styles are pretty different on how they do it.

[Gamemako]

Except my Inner Beasts are much larger than 1k. The change is a nerf on all content except turn 4 and 5. WAR gets really good with gear. People need to stop gearing and playing like a Paladin. Yoshi was right, most WARs need some L2P.

That simply isn't true. This is a nerf on mid-game content of Qarn through Stone Vigil or so. It's a buff on 5-stack Grudge even in fully-maxed DPS gear, and it's a very large buff on the people for whom the content was designed.

Actually Yoshi did say L2P, and he never retracted that statement, he merely said that PLD was too good and WAR was being bought up to that level.

Apparently, he figured that everyone would need full ilvl90 for Coil until PLDs did it in Darklight. He didn't say L2P, he pretty much threw everyone back in the fire until they had the gear to do it as intended without realizing that PLD didn't need it.

[Kitru]

True, and to an extent warrior is losing its "flavor" to be more paladin tasting.

WAR isn't losing the WAR "flavor". The WAR flavor was *never* "self healing tank", "soak tank", or whatever else people seem to think that its flavor was. The only "soak tank" thing about it is the higher hp, which, as has been pointed out time and time again, doesn't actually provide a benefit over the 20% damage mitigation that PLD gets where eHP is concerned. WAR was never a "self-healing tank" either because self-healing was a *tiny* portion of total mitigation; actual damage reduction and the +healing/+hp from Defiance made up a *whole* lot more.

The only reason people get hung up on the idea that WAR is a "self healing" or "soak" tank (and then proceed to whine that WAR is suddenly losing its flavor and just becoming more like PLD) is because they're enthralled by big numbers: people see high hp and immediately think "soak tank" even if "soak tank" is a completely empty descriptor and they see big flashy heals from Inner Beast (and the paltry little bits of healing from Storm's Path and Bloodbath) and think "self healing" even if you could ignore the self healing completely with no real difference in healing required.

WAR is defined by Wrath stack generation and expenditure. As it stands, because Inner Beast doesn't scale and comes at the cost of the +healing that WAR needs to stay competitive with PLD, there's next to no reason to actually use your Wrath stacks. The changes the devs are making WAR *less* like PLD because you're going to have a reason to use your Wrath stacks on a regular basis, even if they are shifting the *mechanisms* that WAR uses for its mitigation away from self-healing *because self-healing is a terrible, terrible mechanism for a tank to rely upon*. WAR is going to actually play like it's *supposed* to. If you're upset because you don't get to see big flashy self-healing numbers from Inner Beast any more, it's only because you have no idea what WAR is actually about.

As to the OP, the only way that any kind of self-healing or shield mechanic is going to work as a mechanic that a tank can rely upon is if it scales with incoming damage rather than outgoing damage or max hp because those values scale at very different rates and the devs have no direct control over them such that, in low damage scenarios, they're horribly overpowered (overgeared WAR in AK) and, in high damage scenarios, they're effectively worthless (WAR in pretty much any 8-man content when measured against a PLD).

[ZenBear]

WAR isn't losing the WAR "flavor"...

As to the OP...

Ok so the last part of your post: I agree that a Max Health and incoming damage scaling would be best over the current "based on damage output" method. Tanks are not supposed to do tons of damage in a Holy Trinity game, and making any class a hybrid tends to make them generally sub-par.

As for the first part: I disagree. WAR was supposed to be the self-heal soak tank, but it just doesn't work. That's why they're adding mitigation tools in the 2.1 patch to balance it. We don't think this because we are "enthralled by big numbers" as you say, it is because the WAR has self-healing abilities up the wazoo, and the +healing/+hp from Defiance (is there any damage reduction? and if so, was it always there from the start?) only further supports this.

[Exstal]

Actually Yoshi did say L2P, and he never retracted that statement, he merely said that PLD was too good and WAR was being bought up to that level.

Except people know how to play Warrior now. If there was no issue, as per 2 WAR t5, then there would be no buff. However, since scaling issues are terrible for Warrior..well the rest we all know.

As for the first part: I disagree. WAR was supposed to be the self-heal soak tank, but it just doesn't work. That's why they're adding mitigation tools in the 2.1 patch to balance it. We don't think this because we are "enthralled by big numbers" as you say, it is because the WAR has self-healing abilities up the wazoo, and the +healing/+hp from Defiance (is there any damage reduction? and if so, was it always there from the start?) only further supports this.

How do you figure it was supposed to be a self-heal, soak tank?

You realize that every single one of Warrior skills revolves around Wrath stacks?

Defiance - Generate Wrath stacks, increase HP
Inner Beast - Requires 5 Wrath stacks (only job skill that recovers HP)
Unchained - Requires 5 Wrath stacks
Steel Cyclone - Requires 5 Wrath stacks
Infuriate - Instantly generate 5 Wrath stacks

You could make the argument that Marauder is supposed to be a self-heal class. Notice how they are putting DR on Vengance (akin to Magic Barrier on BLM) and Damage down on Storm's Path (akin to Rage of Halone) and further reduction on the job skill (Inner Beast)? This could be the foundation for making a melee DPS class out of MRD without being completely OP otherwise, put DR all over the place and call it a daty.

[ZenBear]

How do you figure it was supposed to be a self-heal, soak tank?

You realize that every single one of Warrior skills revolves around Wrath stacks?

Defiance - Generate Wrath stacks, increase HP
Inner Beast - Requires 5 Wrath stacks (only job skill that recovers HP)
Unchained - Requires 5 Wrath stacks
Steel Cyclone - Requires 5 Wrath stacks
Infuriate - Instantly generate 5 Wrath stacks

You could make the argument that Marauder is supposed to be a self-heal class. Notice how they are putting DR on Vengance (akin to Magic Barrier on BLM) and Damage down on Storm's Path (akin to Rage of Halone) and further reduction on the job skill (Inner Beast)? This could be the foundation for making a melee DPS class out of MRD without being completely OP otherwise, put DR all over the place and call it a daty.

Marauder is a self-heal class; Warrior is the Tank Job of the Marauder Class; Warrior is the self-heal tank. Wrath stacks are the mechanic added to the self-heal class, but they don't change the fact that it is a self-heal class/job. In fact, it only reinforces it because Defiance increases HP (soak tank) and with full Wrath Stacks you gain bonus healing (self-heals also buffed). Warrior is a self-heal soak tank, as supported by its abilities and mechanics.

2.1 is adding in the DR and Damage Down and reeling in the self-heal on Storm's Path because the self-heal focus isn't working out, so they need to add mitigation. This is the change, not the standard.

[Kitru]

it is because the WAR has self-healing abilities up the wazoo

Up the wazoo? WAR has Storm's Path, Bloodbath, and Inner Beast. That's the extent of your "wazoo". 3 self-healing abilities, 2 of which are so weak that they're a job, do not define a tank as a "self-healing" tank. The only reason that people think that WAR is or ever *was* a self-healing tank is because Inner Beast flashes up a big, attention grabbing number even if that number is laughable in comparison to incoming damage.

[Exstal]

Marauder is a self-heal class; Warrior is the Tank Job of the Marauder Class; Warrior is the self-heal tank. Wrath stacks are the mechanic added to the self-heal class, but they don't change the fact that it is a self-heal class/job. In fact, it only reinforces it because Defiance increases HP (soak tank) and with full Wrath Stacks you gain bonus healing (self-heals also buffed). Warrior is a self-heal soak tank, as supported by its abilities and mechanics.

2.1 is adding in the DR and Damage Down and reeling in the self-heal on Storm's Path because the self-heal focus isn't working out, so they need to add mitigation. This is the change, not the standard.

It actually changes it entirely. I wouldn't use Storm's Path because the heal is pathetic, Bloodbath is pathetic, Mercy Stroke follows suite. So what does that leave you with? Now if 3/5 or more job skills revolved around self healing, it'd make sense. But that's not the case.

"Their approach to battle is one of brute force, as they rely on pure strength and good steel to crush enemies and sunder weapons."

In contrast, Paladin isn't so vague in their description;

For centuries, the elite of the Sultansworn have served as personal bodyguards to the royal family of Ul'dah. Known as paladins, these men and women marry exquisite swordplay with stalwart shieldwork to create a style of combat uncompromising in its defense. Clad in brilliant silver armor, they charge fearlessly into battle, ever ready to lay down their lives for their liege.

To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built.

However this argument is pointless in the end, Warrior needed a buff if they hope to compete in content where Titan's fists would look like pillow hits.

[ZenBear]

Up the wazoo? WAR has Storm's Path, Bloodbath, and Inner Beast. That's the extent of your "wazoo". 3 self-healing abilities, 2 of which are so weak that they're a job, do not define a tank as a "self-healing" tank. The only reason that people think that WAR is or ever *was* a self-healing tank is because Inner Beast flashes up a big, attention grabbing number even if that number is laughable in comparison to incoming damage.

Just because the abilities are weak doesn't mean they aren't key to the identity of the class. And yes, compared to any other class and PLD/GLA in particular who have 0 (Cure and Bloodbath dont count, being cross-class), 3 is "up the wazoo." Now stop arguing semantics.

As Exstal has said, it's an irrelevant argument now that the 2.1 changes have been confirmed. This debate has very little to do with my original topic anyway.