Temporary HP Tank

[Eightbit]

Correct, and yes to an extent percent mitigation is better than fixed soak, but conceptually that is the difference between PLD and WAR. Paladins is the mitigation tank, Warrior is the soak tank. That's why I'm a bit concerned with the 2.1 changes adding so much mitigation to the Warrior.

True, and to an extent warrior is losing its "flavor" to be more paladin tasting. But at the end of it all, damage is damage and both have to deal with it. I'm a little sad to see the hp bit of warriors go, though it just isn't possible to really balance well in this set up right now. My stance now is that while both will become mitigation, their styles are pretty different on how they do it.

[Kitru]

True, and to an extent warrior is losing its "flavor" to be more paladin tasting.

WAR isn't losing the WAR "flavor". The WAR flavor was *never* "self healing tank", "soak tank", or whatever else people seem to think that its flavor was. The only "soak tank" thing about it is the higher hp, which, as has been pointed out time and time again, doesn't actually provide a benefit over the 20% damage mitigation that PLD gets where eHP is concerned. WAR was never a "self-healing tank" either because self-healing was a *tiny* portion of total mitigation; actual damage reduction and the +healing/+hp from Defiance made up a *whole* lot more.

The only reason people get hung up on the idea that WAR is a "self healing" or "soak" tank (and then proceed to whine that WAR is suddenly losing its flavor and just becoming more like PLD) is because they're enthralled by big numbers: people see high hp and immediately think "soak tank" even if "soak tank" is a completely empty descriptor and they see big flashy heals from Inner Beast (and the paltry little bits of healing from Storm's Path and Bloodbath) and think "self healing" even if you could ignore the self healing completely with no real difference in healing required.

WAR is defined by Wrath stack generation and expenditure. As it stands, because Inner Beast doesn't scale and comes at the cost of the +healing that WAR needs to stay competitive with PLD, there's next to no reason to actually use your Wrath stacks. The changes the devs are making WAR *less* like PLD because you're going to have a reason to use your Wrath stacks on a regular basis, even if they are shifting the *mechanisms* that WAR uses for its mitigation away from self-healing *because self-healing is a terrible, terrible mechanism for a tank to rely upon*. WAR is going to actually play like it's *supposed* to. If you're upset because you don't get to see big flashy self-healing numbers from Inner Beast any more, it's only because you have no idea what WAR is actually about.

As to the OP, the only way that any kind of self-healing or shield mechanic is going to work as a mechanic that a tank can rely upon is if it scales with incoming damage rather than outgoing damage or max hp because those values scale at very different rates and the devs have no direct control over them such that, in low damage scenarios, they're horribly overpowered (overgeared WAR in AK) and, in high damage scenarios, they're effectively worthless (WAR in pretty much any 8-man content when measured against a PLD).

[ZenBear]

WAR isn't losing the WAR "flavor"...

As to the OP...

Ok so the last part of your post: I agree that a Max Health and incoming damage scaling would be best over the current "based on damage output" method. Tanks are not supposed to do tons of damage in a Holy Trinity game, and making any class a hybrid tends to make them generally sub-par.

As for the first part: I disagree. WAR was supposed to be the self-heal soak tank, but it just doesn't work. That's why they're adding mitigation tools in the 2.1 patch to balance it. We don't think this because we are "enthralled by big numbers" as you say, it is because the WAR has self-healing abilities up the wazoo, and the +healing/+hp from Defiance (is there any damage reduction? and if so, was it always there from the start?) only further supports this.

[Kitru]

it is because the WAR has self-healing abilities up the wazoo

Up the wazoo? WAR has Storm's Path, Bloodbath, and Inner Beast. That's the extent of your "wazoo". 3 self-healing abilities, 2 of which are so weak that they're a job, do not define a tank as a "self-healing" tank. The only reason that people think that WAR is or ever *was* a self-healing tank is because Inner Beast flashes up a big, attention grabbing number even if that number is laughable in comparison to incoming damage.

[ZenBear]

Up the wazoo? WAR has Storm's Path, Bloodbath, and Inner Beast. That's the extent of your "wazoo". 3 self-healing abilities, 2 of which are so weak that they're a job, do not define a tank as a "self-healing" tank. The only reason that people think that WAR is or ever *was* a self-healing tank is because Inner Beast flashes up a big, attention grabbing number even if that number is laughable in comparison to incoming damage.

Just because the abilities are weak doesn't mean they aren't key to the identity of the class. And yes, compared to any other class and PLD/GLA in particular who have 0 (Cure and Bloodbath dont count, being cross-class), 3 is "up the wazoo." Now stop arguing semantics.

As Exstal has said, it's an irrelevant argument now that the 2.1 changes have been confirmed. This debate has very little to do with my original topic anyway.

[Kitru]

Just because the abilities are weak doesn't mean they aren't key to the identity of the class.

Except that, if this were true, people wouldn't be complaining about the WAR having an identity crisis because the number of self heals that a WAR has available is actually the same. If you want to talk about *usable* self-heals, that number is actually going up because, right now, there's no reason to use Storm's Path because it's both expensive and provides laughable self healing.

The amount that certain abilities actual impact performance is *exactly* what makes them key to the class's *actual* identity (as opposed to imposed identity applied based upon perception). The people that think that WAR is defined by self-healing only believe that because Inner Beast throws up a big self-heal number. If all that the class had was Bloodbath and Storm's Path, no one would say *anything* about WAR being a self-healing tank. It's the big number that Inner Beast throws up *alone* that makes people think that WAR is a self-healing tank, and, if you've actually looked at how much it really contributes, you'd realize that Inner Beast (in its current implementation) *isn't* actually key to the WAR playstyle.

WAR is, and always has been, defined by Wrath, not self-healing. It isn't bad implementation of the concept of a self-healing tank that is being fixed. They're addressing the fact that the wrong mitigation mechanic (self healing) was chosen to be placed upon the primary tool used as part of the playstyle mechanic (Wrath) that actually defines the class.

Calling a WAR a self-healing tank is like talking about a person's sequined shoes when asked to describe them: yes, it *does* describe their appearance in some way, but it completely misses the big picture of what you're actually supposed to be describing because you're so focused upon a tiny fragment that drew your attention.

This debate has very little to do with my original topic anyway.

I already explained exactly why your original idea was bad and what would need to be done to make it actually work. Keep in mind that you did actually say, in your original post, that you think that 2.1 is "on the verge of dangerously homogenizing WAR/PLD" so you opened it up for discussion. Anyone that has actually played the two classes or looked at anything concerning the changes beyond the terms "damage reduction" and "self healing" would realize that the two tanks are *still* going to play completely differently. WAR and PLD aren't being homogenized; the only reason you'd believe that is if you think that a class is defined by arbitrary attributes like damage type instead of the actual mechanics of the class: having a MNK deal slashing damage wouldn't do anything more to change its identity than what 2.1 is doing to WAR (except that WAR is also getting some much needed buffs to its *abysmal* CD suite, which, unless you think that a terrible CD suite is part of the WAR identity, is purely a balance change).

[ZenBear]

1. right now, there's no reason to use Storm's Path because it's both expensive and provides laughable self healing.

2. The people that think that WAR is defined by self-healing only believe that because Inner Beast throws up a big self-heal number. If all that the class had was Bloodbath and Storm's Path, no one would say *anything* about WAR being a self-healing tank. It's the big number that Inner Beast throws up *alone* that makes people think that WAR is a self-healing tank, and, if you've actually looked at how much it really contributes, you'd realize that Inner Beast (in its current implementation) *isn't* actually key to the WAR playstyle.

WAR is, and always has been, defined by Wrath, not self-healing. It isn't bad implementation of the concept of a self-healing tank that is being fixed. They're addressing the fact that the wrong mitigation mechanic (self healing) was chosen to be placed upon the primary tool used as part of the playstyle mechanic (Wrath) that actually defines the class.

3. I already explained exactly why your original idea was bad and what would need to be done to make it actually work.

4. 2.1 is "on the verge of dangerously homogenizing WAR/PLD" so you opened it up for discussion. Anyone that has actually played the two classes or looked at anything concerning the changes beyond the terms "damage reduction" and "self healing" would realize that the two tanks are *still* going to play completely differently.

Haha, wow... you are way too worked up about this.

1. You claim that *usable* and *actual* identity defines the class; I disagree. The developers define the class because it's their creation. Part of that creation (an integral part) was self-healing, as is evident by the fact that MRD/WAR is the only class with self-only healing. Yes, Wrath is the defining mechanic between MRD and WAR. Still doesn't change the fact that MRD is part of WAR and therefore everything that defines MRD also defines WAR, ableit only partly so. On top of that, as I said, Wrath boosts 2 things: max hp, and healing. Both synergize with a "self-healing soak tank." You can deny it all you want, you'll still be wrong.

2. I'm one of these people you're talking about and I'm telling you you are wrong. It is the combination of Bloodbath, Storm's Path, Inner Beast and the +healing on Wrath stacks that make the WAR a self-healer. Don't try to tell me what I think, if you disagree with me then you are wrong.

3. Way to be insulting. Does it make you feel better to put me down? I bet it does.

4. Correct, I did mention it in passing. You are right, the classes are still very different. I admit my initial comment you are quoting was an exaggeration.

Seriously though, you need to calm down. Agree to disagree and move on with your life.