[dev1075] Limit Breaks or Overdrive Mode

[Rentahamster]

Well, the problem with the tp system is that it builds up very quickly and the weapon skills don't mean very much. Perhaps if there were a slower tp generation and more damage it would work in that system. I wouldn't want the overdrive bar to need very much management, because I can see where that could be a problem. The bar itself doesn't even need to have numbers, it can just be a bar that blinks when it is full like in the final fantasy games. Then it would only take one button to trigger it. It is just something to make you feel like you have done a significant ability.

Keep in mind we will also be losing the physical level bar, so this could possibly be a replacement in terms of space

Well, normal Weapon Skills only take between 250 and 2000 TP to use. It doesn't take that long to build up.

What if we increased the max TP gauge to 5000, then had all limit breaks require 5000 TP to use?

Perhaps each class has a unique quest that adds an additional 500 max TP to your gauge.

[ClashBlades]

What if we increased the max TP gauge to 5000, then had all limit breaks require 5000 TP to use?

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I really do like this idea, but I would be a little nervous with this because that would leave people auto-attacking all the way up until 5000 tp. Unless they make weapon skills better there would be no reason to use the current ones. If we held tp until 5000 then this game would become very repetitive. Auto-attack for a minute, 5k tp, auto-attack etc. I feel as though the only way to implement this would be to create a separate meter. I don't think it would be that big of a deal in terms of resource management. There isn't very much to manage with it. Could you address the issue you have with resource management? What exactly the issue would be? I want to better understand your perspective of this.

[Physic]

I really do like this idea, but I would be a little nervous with this because that would leave people auto-attacking all the way up until 5000 tp. Unless they make weapon skills better there would be no reason to use the current ones. If we held tp until 5000 then this game would become very repetitive. Auto-attack for a minute, 5k tp, auto-attack etc. I feel as though the only way to implement this would be to create a separate meter. I don't think it would be that big of a deal in terms of resource management. There isn't very much to manage with it. Could you address the issue you have with resource management? What exactly the issue would be? I want to better understand your perspective of this.

this is a good point, having more powerful skills that use a different resource, makes it so that building and using TP doesnt interfere with using better skills, in fact it could reward the use of tp skills.

Like someone else mentioned i think it will also be good if different jobs had different mechanics for getting access to these skills, Depending what they do with AA and basic attacks, DoM may become even less distinct from each other than they are now. Having It come from damage done in one class, damage received in another, number of attacks/ws, statuses applied etc, crits or whatever, further makes each discipline unique.

I know they are adding two hours, in terms of strong job specific abilities, but i hope the mechanics of use wont be as passive as a cooldown.

[MeowyWowie]

Great idea I think. Would be nice if they adapted FFX's (I think?) way of doing it, such that you can change which way you gained "aggression". That would also open up the possibility of new quests to unlock them, as well as different limit breaks themselves, each class having their own seperate quests for both. But for starters, keep the first option suitable for the class you are playing.

Edit: Original post was made after only reading the OP's.

I understand where Hamster's coming from but I believe limit breaks should be a rare occurrence. They should be powerful and help define the classes a bit more.

There should be limitations on the limit bar as well, something that would keep a full party from building up their limit bars completely for 1 boss fight. At the moment, the only ideas I can think of is making the bar reset when you die (makes people try harder to stay alive). And also have it deplete itself during periods of inactivity while logged on. To keep it fair, have the bar at a random spot each time you log on, but also somehow keep people from logging in/out to max it.

Edit again: After putting a little more thought into it, people will always find a way to exploit the system and still use these to get a head start on tough bosses. I guess the simplest solution is to make then a little less powerful for these types of encounters.

Either way, a brilliant idea but I can see and incredible amount of tweaking to balance it correctly.

[Rentahamster]

I really do like this idea, but I would be a little nervous with this because that would leave people auto-attacking all the way up until 5000 tp. Unless they make weapon skills better there would be no reason to use the current ones. If we held tp until 5000 then this game would become very repetitive. Auto-attack for a minute, 5k tp, auto-attack etc. I feel as though the only way to implement this would be to create a separate meter. I don't think it would be that big of a deal in terms of resource management. There isn't very much to manage with it. Could you address the issue you have with resource management? What exactly the issue would be? I want to better understand your perspective of this.

First of all, there needs to be a distinction between using weaponskills more often, and saving up 5K TP for a limit break. Each method having certain advantages and disadvantages over the other. You can't just have it be a separate bar that fills up no matter what. Then, there's no reason NOT to use, it, and that doesn't foster good balance. It'll also lead to the limit breaks being overpowered.

The player needs to manage his resources carefully and make a decision to either use the weaponskill or the limit break strategy depending on the situation at hand.

Additionally, adding more bars, like an overdrive bar, might make the battle more complex, but it doesn't necessarily make the gameplay any deeper. What you want to avoid is mistaking complexity for depth. If you can achieve the same goals of implementing a limit-break style of moves to the game, then you should try as much as you can to implement it in a way that doesn't involve just slapping another bar on the screen - especially one that has redundant characteristics to your other, already established resource bars.

[ClashBlades]

First of all, there needs to be a distinction between using weaponskills more often, and saving up 5K TP for a limit break. Each method having certain advantages and disadvantages over the other. You can't just have it be a separate bar that fills up no matter what. Then, there's no reason NOT to use, it, and that doesn't foster good balance. It'll also lead to the limit breaks being overpowered.

Actually there is a reason not to use it. Just like there is a reason not to use a 2hr ability. You have to use it at the optimum time. You don't want to just use your incredible ability at any time. You want to use it when it is really needed. I want to emphasize that this bar does not charge swiftly. This is a slow charging bar that cannot be used every few minutes.

[Rentahamster]

Actually there is a reason not to use it. Just like there is a reason not to use a 2hr ability. You have to use it at the optimum time. You don't want to just use your incredible ability at any time. You want to use it when it is really needed.

That's just a reason to delay using it. You're still going to use it eventually, and there are no drawbacks to that - your overdrive is going to fill to max no matter what you do.

Essentially what you're proposing is a super meter like in Street Fighter. Ask yourself this - what has deeper gameplay?

Super Street Fighter - where your super bar fills up and you do a super move when you want

or

Street Fighter 4 - where your super bar fills up, and you have a choice of using up small chunks of it to execute EX special moves, or saving it all in order to execute a powerful super move - with each strategy having its own pros and cons, depending on the player's character, his opponent's character, and the individual playstyle of the player himself.

[ClashBlades]

That's just a reason to delay using it. You're still going to use it eventually, and there are no drawbacks to that - your overdrive is going to fill to max no matter what you do.

That's like saying there is no drawback to a 2hr ability. There is and there isn't a drawback, you won't have access to it for a long while. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's like saying all skills have no drawback. They take TP or MP just as the limit break move will take up that bar. I don't want you to think that I'm attacking you, but I honestly don't think that it is far different than a 2hr ability in terms of drawbacks. The ability uses up the entire bar. There are no increments on it.

Keep the creative ideas coming guys. Skill Ideas? Specifics about the implementation?

[Physic]

That's just a reason to delay using it. You're still going to use it eventually, and there are no drawbacks to that - your overdrive is going to fill to max no matter what you do.

Essentially what you're proposing is a super meter like in Street Fighter. Ask yourself this - what has deeper gameplay?

Super Street Fighter - where your super bar fills up and you do a super move when you want

or

Street Fighter 4 - where your super bar fills up, and you have a choice of using up small chunks of it to execute EX special moves, or saving it all in order to execute a powerful super move - with each strategy having its own pros and cons, depending on the player's character, his opponent's character, and the individual playstyle of the player himself.

this is a good point, but tp 5000 wouldnt be that long to get to, also the difference in SF4 is you still have access to your regular special attacks, if every special attack used tp, The move would have to be insanely godly to make up for not being able to do anything but auto attack for the entire time. Imagine SF if supers disappeared if you used any special attack.
Basically what your saying would be fine, if we had solid gameplay that didnt require tp, but seeing as how with AA we may get even less skills that dont require tp, it would seem to be a bad idea to tie it to tp.

My real problem with the tp 5k thing is, if it is good, no one will use the rest of their tp moves, if it is not good no one will ever use it. In that case it not being good is better, because playing with no tp use is fairly boring.

I look at an extra mechanic as a good thing, if its specific to class, gives different play mechanics to classes, much like in ffxi, bluemage, puppet and dancer played fundamentaly differently than other classes, whereas if you look at early ffxi, all DD were virtually the same playstyle. While they wouldnt have to build limits into that, it would be an interesting place to put it.

The thing to remeber with most FFXI limits is they existed to be used, the key was how you built it up, and when you used them. I think building it up can be an interesting game mechanic. Building up tp is not that interesting right now.

[Rentahamster]

this is a good point, but tp 5000 wouldnt be that long to get to, also the difference in SF4 is you still have access to your regular special attacks, if every special attack used tp, The move would have to be insanely godly to make up for not being able to do anything but auto attack for the entire time. Imagine SF if supers disappeared if you used any special attack.

Of course super bars don't disappear when you use special attacks. That is why the skill and resource management is a choice between EX specials VS. Super moves.