[DEV] Time sinks and satisfaction, a plea from one of your hardcore fans

[MeowyWowie]

Disclaimer: This thread is not about Hard vs Easy content. It's not about any type of player being better than another. This thread is strictly about content that is available to everyone and keeps them coming back for more. Please stay on this topic.

I'd like to take a moment to discuss the topic of time sinks. In this post I will make a number of references to FFXI and also attempt to explain, in my own words, why FFXI was designed the way it was and what it means for FFXIV's future.

Why FFXI? Three reasons: It was the predecessor to FFXIV. It is commonly referred to as being one giant time sink. And FFXIV took one of FFXI best concepts and attempted to improve on it.

When Square-Enix released FFXI they revolutionized a certain aspect of MMOs in general. To this this date, the only other MMO on the market that has adopted this change is FFXIV. It is one of the main reasons I prefer FF's 2 MMOs over any other. So what was this brilliant idea of theirs you say? The ability to level every class on one character. So what does this mean for us, the players?

Well, the most obvious result of this change would be the notion that if you wanted to play a new class, you didn't have to make a whole new character. This allowed for players to become more attached to their avatar. It represented who they were in this virtual world of theirs. It made making a reputation for yourself something many people took seriously, and rightfully so.

With it also came the birth of the subjob and armory systems. Two incredible concepts that, while other MMOs have also attempted in their own ways, are still in my opinion the best examples of class flexibility while still staying within the boundaries of roles (FFXIV still needs a ton of work on the latter.) After all, this is a Role Playing Game.

OK so great concept, but what does this have to do with time sinks? The answer, is everything.

Aside from the fact that many of the best items in FFXI lasted for levels upon levels, they also remained the best option for a number of classes together. For example, when you finally got Homam Hands, your PLD DRK and THF all obtained their best TP hands at the same time. Well worth the time and effort you put into getting them. The sense of satisfaction that came with it always seemed like a huge achievement. When you camped Valkurm Emperor for a week straight, hours on end with no drops. Then one day you log on and he is hovering right in front of you, unclaimed, you grin to yourself and begin to kill him for upwards of the 30th time and it happens, "You find a Empress Hairpin on the Valkrum Emperor." Within seconds you're screaming in your LS "OMFG I GOT IT!!!!! WOOOOO!!11!!!1!!" Your THF and NIN were good to go all the way to 70 now. Again, well worth the time and effort you put into it.

The same can be said for nearly everything in the game. There was a reason the best stuff took so much time to obtain. Nothing could compare to the satisfaction you felt when you finally got your hands on it. Byakko's Haidate, Optical hat, Kraken Club, E. Body, Relic weapons, the list goes on and on. There was always new goals for you to complete, and you knew that if you kept at it you would be handsomely rewarded. You wore that gear proudly as you walked through town. It represented the dedication you put into obtaining it. And in turn it further added to your reputation, if that was something you cared about.

Sadly, this is not the case in FFXIV. When you obtain anything in this game the satisfaction is barely there. I don't think I've ever seen anyone extremely excited when they finally got what they were after. The only thing that comes close is making a +3 weapon or tool, and even that is kinda meh. Nothing takes more than a day to obtain if you really put effort into it. When you do finally get it, it's nothing special. Everyone and their mother already has it anyways. There are no real goals. Everything just seems like your essentially watching a movie and you know exactly what to expect.

For any game other than FFXI and FFXIV I can understand why the instant gratification works. For every new character you make, you have to do the same things over and over again. It only makes sense that items should be easier and quicker to obtain. That's a perfect concept, for those games. But this is not the case for FFXIV.

If you're not the type of player that plays to be the best you can or you don't care about getting the best gear then something like this shouldn't bother you. I'm not saying make everything take time and effort to obtain. There should be plenty of decent and easily accessable options for everyone. But for the best stuff in the game, make us work for it. Give us goals, long term goals. Give us a reason to continue playing, something that is rewarding in both an emotional and material sense. We want to feel like we actually accomplished something sometimes.

Square Enix, your multi-class per character concept was probably the best idea out of both of your FF MMOs. Time sinks like those stated above only work to compliment it. You CAN make this game cater to everyone if you choose to, it's all about finding the balance. If you want to keep any of your hardcore playerbase much longer this is the way to do it.

With 1.18 just around the corner, I'm really hoping that this is something Yoshi-P and the dev. team took into consideration. This coming patch will be the make/break for a lot of players. I'm sure if it's just more of the same, you will lose a very large portion of your hardcore fans, myself included. I mean, the whole reason you copied FFXI's races was to let FFXI vets to feel comfortable transferring, wasn't it? Well, I can assure you they don't want a hand holding, easy-mode, free loot give-a-way MMO. You're doing a great job in a casual sense, just don't alienate the rest of us, please.

To the players: Please like this thread if you agree with me. Share your opinions on the matter. What are your ideas for making this game enjoyable for all players? Soon the battle system overhaul will be complete and SE will begin to pump out content. What do YOU want to see?

Edit: Added disclaimer

[Peregrine]

They could have gotten a long way with adding lu-shang style quests for simple earrings or something for each job. I would have loved to have something to do with 10,000 metal ore for miner, or 10,000 crystal shards for Conjurer. They can't make the entire game like that, but it would have been very easy and the would have gotten some content points.

But all this content is coming. There's no one that really wants the game to stay this generic and simple.

[ZephyrAM]

Really, there's one main argument with this post that jumps to mind: level cap increases.

One of the biggest things that players complain about with new expansions is regarding increases to the level cap, and that the gear they spent ages working to get is now no longer useful. Pack it away, vendor it, 'maybe' sell it, if you're very lucky and that's even possible. And the more excited and accomplished you felt to finally receive that awesome item, the more put out you'll feel when you essentially get told it's now useless, go do it again.

As of now, from all we've heard, SE fully intends to raise the level cap. That there's no difficult content or epic gear at the moment is neither a bad thing, nor, likely, entirely unintentional. XIV isn't currently designed for endgame, because endgame doesn't exist yet.

'Everything' that exists in Eorzea right now is leveling fodder.

Now, feel free to push some ideas regarding more difficult/epic aspects of the game, just in case the Devs haven't solidified plans down the road and are still looking to see how players feel about such things. Feedback is always good. Just make it about the future, not about the now, because we don't really want it now when for all we know they could jump the level cap to 70 by Fall.

[Anty]

you speak my mind. The easy-to -optain-everything is also something that kills other mmos as well, especially new ones since people run out of content too fast, not the fastest developer can maintain the speed of even casual gamers finishing this easy-hand-holding-content. I doubt well see something like this but i hope they will give us more harder stuff to do!!!

[Anty]

Really, there's one main argument with this post that jumps to mind: level cap increases.

One of the biggest things that players complain about with new expansions is regarding increases to the level cap, and that the gear they spent ages working to get is now no longer useful. Pack it away, vendor it, 'maybe' sell it, if you're very lucky and that's even possible. And the more excited and accomplished you felt to finally receive that awesome item, the more put out you'll feel when you essentially get told it's now useless, go do it again.

As of now, from all we've heard, SE fully intends to raise the level cap. That there's no difficult content or epic gear at the moment is neither a bad thing, nor, likely, entirely unintentional. XIV isn't currently designed for endgame, because endgame doesn't exist yet.

'Everything' that exists in Eorzea right now is leveling fodder.

Now, feel free to push some ideas regarding more difficult/epic aspects of the game, just in case the Devs haven't solidified plans down the road and are still looking to see how players feel about such things. Feedback is always good. Just make it about the future, not about the now, because we don't really want it now when for all we know they could jump the level cap to 70 by Fall.

Might be true that this is the reason for the current content but looking at all mobs and the all-over easy mode i doubt it.
Would make sense but mobs at lvl 50 are same easy as lvl 20 mobs, there is no difficulty increase.. well.. the mobs usually are even the same... which makes it even worse...

[MeowyWowie]

Really, there's one main argument with this post that jumps to mind: level cap increases.

One of the biggest things that players complain about with new expansions is regarding increases to the level cap, and that the gear they spent ages working to get is now no longer useful. Pack it away, vendor it, 'maybe' sell it, if you're very lucky and that's even possible. And the more excited and accomplished you felt to finally receive that awesome item, the more put out you'll feel when you essentially get told it's now useless, go do it again.

As of now, from all we've heard, SE fully intends to raise the level cap. That there's no difficult content or epic gear at the moment is neither a bad thing, nor, likely, entirely unintentional. XIV isn't currently designed for endgame, because endgame doesn't exist yet.

'Everything' that exists in Eorzea right now is leveling fodder.

Now, feel free to push some ideas regarding more difficult/epic aspects of the game, just in case the Devs haven't solidified plans down the road and are still looking to see how players feel about such things. Feedback is always good. Just make it about the future, not about the now, because we don't really want it now when for all we know they could jump the level cap to 70 by Fall.

While I do agree with your comment it still doesn't make my request premature by any means. I'm not asking for endgame. I know the cap will be raised, I'm fairly sure everyone knows this already. But, they can still release good items that last a very long time, even if they released them now. They did it in XI, so why couldn't they do it here? The 2 most common examples from XI would be Leaping/Bounding boots and Emperor/Empress hairpin. Both took time to obtain, and they lasted you a very, very long time.

Also, with XI, SE was very good at releasing new content and items without completely overshadowing what already existed. Many of the items in game lasted for YEARS, and they pumped content out rather quickly. There's no reason they couldn't do it here.

Edit: Spelling

[Duelle]

The 2 most common examples from XI would be Leaping/Bounding boots and Emperor/Empress hairpin. Both took time to obtain, and they lasted you a very, very long time.

No. That's called "Alpha and Omega itemization". That was a sign of very bad game design that incurred a timesink through gearing and was made worse by community expectations. Did you forget that you were considered a gimp THF and a gimp NIN for not having those items?

The means through which to obtain the items were also horrible, as both were non-guaranteed drops from mobs that were heavily camped by everyone, their mother and their army of /anon RNGs. That was not fun. It was not worthwhile. It was a waste of time that reduced the value of almost everything else for those slots that came your way.

[Xatsh]

It was definatly worth the time, an item that was good for 30levels and then was crafted into a peice good for another 20-25levels...

So yea it would take along time to get but it was good for 3/4ths the wya to endgame. You did not need them, but if you took the time to get them you where rewarded.... that is great game design and how it should be.

[Anty]

No. That's called "Alpha and Omega itemization". That was a sign of very bad game design that incurred a timesink through gearing and was made worse by community expectations. Did you forget that you were considered a gimp THF and a gimp NIN for not having those items?

The means through which to obtain the items were also horrible, as both were non-guaranteed drops from mobs that were heavily camped by everyone, their mother and their army of /anon RNGs. That was not fun. It was not worthwhile. It was a waste of time that reduced the value of almost everything else for those slots that came your way.

in most mmos you are considered "gimp" if you don't wear "purple" gear of some sort or don't meet special requirements. That is nothing new and happens in almost every game. Or something like " we doin hardmode XXX dungeon, ABCDXXXXX required, don't bother applying if you dont have YYYY gear...
Its commong game design, FFXI did a good thing adding those valuable items at many stages where other mmos only focus on endgame leading to an empty world and people not caring about anything but rushing to cap then raiding their asses off.

You had something to do in ffxi in every lvl, and you had many choices. Most mmos don't offer these choices.

[Malakhim]

There's a reason timesinks have a negative meaning attached.

Sitting around waiting for the Valkurm Emperor wasn't work. It was waiting around like a dingbat, when you could have been doing something else. Once he actually spawns and you get the pull, he isn't even that hard to kill. Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...

A better way of introducing meaningful content would be to create quest lines where you have to solve some difficult puzzle(maybe as a party or a community), or defeat several challenging enemies within a set time limit as well as other limits like no magic or something, or maybe just a boss rush dungeon to finally reach a chest or have a chance to lot for some rare gear. The reward should be in a challenging fight coupled with a cool piece 'o loot, and maybe some storyline or something.