Gun Jumpers are so fun..

[glen7187]

I had these kind of issues in AK as my PLD because I only have my HQ ilvl55 weapon and everyone I DF with has relic. I had one party with 2 BLMs that would nuke the crap out of every group of trash mobs with Flares. I held aggro pretty damn well I'm proud to say, but I did have to change my style a little bit. After the pull, I would always start with a RoH just to give me an immediate lead. I do the whole switch targets between RoH combos but if I see people catching up in the enmity bars, I start spamming RoH only (not the combo) just to try to keep me ahead. For me it's just a change in play style sometimes. I am not condoning DPS to just jump the gun, just saying that there MAY be some ways to get around it by playing differently.

[TurboSol]

talking about a 'typical' trash mob pull of 3, here's what I do that rarely loses hate, even against quick DPS aoe spamming.. start with tomahawk on mob1, flash the 3, overpower the 3, HS>SS mob1,>BB mob 2, HS>SS mob 1>BB mob 3.. usually #1 is close to dead so HS> maim mob1 (might maim mob2 if 1 dies)> Storm Eye mob 2, HS>SS mob 2, BB mob 3, full BB combo mob2... so on and so forth.. also depending on how much aoe is actually going on, throw an extra overpower after the 1st BB combo.. maybe not the best way to work things, but it works well for me 99% of the time, and usually if hate is lost, it's mob 3 peels off right as I hit it with BB which brings it right back

[Vortok]

Tanks are usually the leader? Is this an actual thing? Is that a self proclaimed role due to being the guy getting your face pushed in?

It likely comes from games where only the party leader could mark, and since the tank generally marks it means the tank would be the leader. Rest of the 'lead the dungeon' stuff came along with it. Tank generally has to pay more attention to the average fight than a random dps so they're more likely to be the one to explain it, etc.



And yes, some dps can't keep it in their pants. I've yelled at my friend when he pulls a boss when all I had time to do was Tomahawk > Heavy Swing even though I had Unchained active. Could do an uncombo'd Butcher's (if single target and you don't need Flash/Overpower to keep things off the healer initially) after the Tomahawk, but at that point you're starting to have to play suboptimal to cover for the sloppy play of others. Tanking is too easy from all the overgearing for me to pay that much attention most of the time anymore. I miss trash that hit so hard you actually CC'd some of the time. When DPS would faceplant if they got hit 2-3 times by even one of them rather than just shrugging if they pull 2 of the 3 off a tank that's either weak or that they severely outgear (because a half decent healer can heal a non tank through it anyways), thus their lack of caution. Aoe fests are so mindless, boring, and unengaging to me.

[Maelwys]

lately ive had brd that rush in full buff and just unload when i get 1 single tomahawk off. even with a relic, that doesnt produce some massive chunk of instant emnity

In those situations there's only one thing you can do:
Step #1: Stun the mob the DPS is "opening up" on. Then pop a Damage buff (FoF/Berserk) and Flash to get hate on the "other" adds.
Step #2: Use Fast Blade/Heavy Swing on the mob
Step #3: Once the DPS has landed their second/third attack, Use Provoke (Off GCD) to put you back on top of the enmity list, immediately followed by Savage Blade/Skull Sunder, then Rage of Halone/Butcher's Block.
Step #4: Flash.

Hate is now back on you. Enjoy.

[Zakalwe]

Tanks are usually the leader? Is this an actual thing? Is that a self proclaimed role due to being the guy getting your face pushed in?

Leader may be too strong a word, but yes tanks set the pace of the run. Those who decide to race ahead of the tank, start doing the pulls or decide to dump max DPS on mobs before a tank has a chance to initiate main aggro skills typically die.

[Zakalwe]

It likely comes from games where only the party leader could mark, and since the tank generally marks it means the tank would be the leader. Rest of the 'lead the dungeon' stuff came along with it. Tank generally has to pay more attention to the average fight than a random dps so they're more likely to be the one to explain it, etc. [snip]

Most other mmos give tanks much stronger aggro skills, esp initial skills like a forced taunt. In those cases, it is just as important that dps stay on target, but less for aggro management than for survival -- that is, to whittle down the number of mobs pounding on the tank/group as fast as possible. In the mmo I most recently played groups tended not to mark mob targets, but instead designated a lead dps to select targets and then all other dps (except for tanks who were often switching around targets for enmity purposes) would stay on that selected target until dead through a 'target assist' graphic on the screen (showing the target the designated target selector was currently attacking).

In this game it might make a little more sense for the tank to be selecting targets because the purpose is more aggro management than group survival issues, but it doesn't really matter to me who is doing the target marking as long as it makes sense and we all follow it when needed.

Often times people confuse on-level tough content with something like an overgeared quick WP run with a bard, black mage and white mage all pounding down aoes, where target marking is often a lot like stop signs in Boston. That is, only a suggestion.

[Vortok]

In this game it might make a little more sense for the tank to be selecting targets because the purpose is more aggro management than group survival issues, but it doesn't really matter to me who is doing the target marking as long as it makes sense and we all follow it when needed.

My experience in BC WoW was much like that. Tank still marked, because they had a much better idea than most dps of what mobs were the most dangerous and thus what they wanted to die first. Most tanks (especially Druid) wanted casters dead first, but a cheeky Warrior might've left them up to spell reflect junk back at them, but there's obviously more to it than 'caster or not.' It wasn't just marking to focus fire, often times the first/second targets were marked that way because they were actually more dangerous and killing them last made the pull a fair bit harder.

People could get stuck in Magister's Terrace on a certain trash pulls if they didn't have a reasonable group. The only one this game has off the top of my head that's even close is the 4 pull in Stone Vigil, and it's an optional pull. It would probably have a lot more, but the devs opted to make pretty much any ability that hits remotely hard something you can dodge by (generally) not standing in the bad. As long as people can dodge, kill order matters far less. Stone vigil's pull has 2 ice sprites that you can't dodge (other than dancing in circles around them so they can't finish a cast) and hit fairly hard and has two Aevis mobs - can't dodge out of their Lunge attack, just their electrical aoe. It's no wonder it sticks at as being more dangerous.

Back when trash was mildly interesting, instead of just being trash.

[Judge_Xero]

Tanks are usually the leader? Is this an actual thing? Is that a self proclaimed role due to being the guy getting your face pushed in?

As others have noted as well, it kind of just happens that way. Tanks are like the babysitters of the MMO world, since you have prevent others from getting their own face pushed in.

[Truefaith87]

well aside from the smartasses i took a chance to build some macros for tanking, along with the advice of several, finished +1, and now tanking seems to of gotten much easier. it could be i just started getting lucky with smarter dps, but theyre actually giving me 1 BB chain (ST) or 2 overpower (aoe) before they just unload. seems alot of the issue with healing early was caused by early or prepull regens as well, i ran with a whm friend to test that specifically. no prehealing not once did he even approach emnity. then again that was someone i was on voicechat with and specifically requested that. expecting that from every run i know has zero chance of happening. guess its impossible to ask for every party to go 110% your way, in any mmo. well ill still say thank you to all the constructive posters, the info was much appreciated.

[Grailer]

I've had more issues with WHM doing this than DPS, honestly. Regen before a fight starts or starting off healing using Cure II when I've barely lost health...I've warned too many WHM that if they keep pulling hate in dumb ways before I have aggro that I won't save them...usually keeps them in check. If a DPS does this I will warn them once and if they continue they will have to tank that mob.

Unfortunately once your healer dies you probably will die too , So tbh you aren't really that important because without healer you are dead . But WHM can tank without you .