Why the SCH hate from WHM?

[cainejw]

The synergy in 8-mans with one of each is superb, but healing solo it just irks me that SCH has so much freedom to multitask. I have both at 50 so nothing personal, just class mechanic jealousy - often I hear WHMs wish they had a bunch of things SCH has, while all SCH wish for is Medica II.

Yeah, I've never heard of SCH who wished they had Leeches sooner, Medica I and II, Holy, Divine Seal, Regen, and Enhanced Stoneskin and Protect. Nope.

Oh, wait, I have. If you hate someone who plays Scholar because they have tools you don't, the problem isn't Scholar. It's you.

[Jeykama]

Yeah, I've never heard of SCH who wished they had Leeches sooner, Medica I and II, Holy, Divine Seal, Regen, and Enhanced Stoneskin and Protect. Nope.

Oh, wait, I have. If you hate someone who plays Scholar because they have tools you don't, the problem isn't Scholar. It's you.

Guess you didn't get the memo that I was being facetious about "hate" since I wouldn't have a SCH50 if I really hated the job. If you want to go there though...

WHM - no mp reclaim until lv38. Shroud's mp reclaim scales at a fraction of Aetherflow. CD is 2 minutes.
SCH gets 20% max mp return Aetherflow at lv6 and Energy Drain at lv8. CD is one minute.

WHM - gets Regen at 35. Gets terrified of using it because the game never outright tells you that overheals are massive threat.
SCH - gets a fairy that is hate-free non-insignificant healing equivalent to 2 regens while you get to do whatever you want independently (even go afk... I had a SCH healer in a lowbie dungeon that afk/followed on me as their fairy healed the entire instance)

WHM - gets Esuna at 18, never uses it until lv32 except for cleansing insignificant poisons. Runs into the Brayflox dragon and can cleanse poisons, but nearly runs out of mp anyway without a bard.
SCH - gets Leeches at 40, wishes they had it 8 levels earlier but healed through the Brayflox dragon anyway while never running out of mp. Both cases I've healed with the tanks getting hit by around 3 breaths.

WHM - gets Stoneskin at 38, never uses it until Enhanced Stoneskin and even then has no practical use for it until using it as a cushion for speedrunning or spike damage on Titan. The cast time is too long and cost/absorb is not as good as Cure II for normal use.
SCH - Adloquium sees use from start to finish and actually has stat synergy with crit.

WHM - if you know the tank is going to take spike damage -> you should already have regen up, so your options are to cast stoneskin and heal the aftermath, or gamble on benediction.
SCH - if you know the tank is going to take spike damage -> Adloquium, then... maybe Ruin 2 for the blind, Sacred Soil, use a Lustrate for the aftermath, maybe your fairy can give a 20% healing boost, maybe rouse the fairy too for more healing. Also shadowflare for the slow if it works

The main difference is mp management, emnity management, and having options. It's not hard for me to see that SCH plainly wins in all three categories. The one category that WHM does win at, i.e. raw healing, a SCH can challenge with mitigation, and really there is nothing that requires all that raw healing other than enrage pulses.

I can usually handle the mp issues, and usually the emnity issues, but my inner WHM is just jealous that my inner SCH gets all these cool multitasking toys while the itself is stuck in either/or land.

[Lilysparkle]

Guess you didn't get the memo that I was being facetious about "hate" since I wouldn't have a SCH50 if I really hated the job. If you want to go there though...

WHM - no mp reclaim until lv38. Shroud's mp reclaim scales at a fraction of Aetherflow. CD is 2 minutes.
SCH gets 20% max mp return Aetherflow at lv6 and Energy Drain at lv8. CD is one minute.

WHM - gets Regen at 35. Gets terrified of using it because the game never outright tells you that overheals are massive threat.
SCH - gets a fairy that is hate-free non-insignificant healing equivalent to 2 regens while you get to do whatever you want independently (even go afk... I had a SCH healer in a lowbie dungeon that afk/followed on me as their fairy healed the entire instance)

WHM - gets Esuna at 18, never uses it until lv32 except for cleansing insignificant poisons. Runs into the Brayflox dragon and can cleanse poisons, but nearly runs out of mp anyway without a bard.
SCH - gets Leeches at 40, wishes they had it 8 levels earlier but healed through the Brayflox dragon anyway while never running out of mp. Both cases I've healed with the tanks getting hit by around 3 breaths.

WHM - gets Stoneskin at 38, never uses it until Enhanced Stoneskin and even then has no practical use for it until using it as a cushion for speedrunning or spike damage on Titan. The cast time is too long and cost/absorb is not as good as Cure II for normal use.
SCH - Adloquium sees use from start to finish and actually has stat synergy with crit.

WHM - if you know the tank is going to take spike damage -> you should already have regen up, so your options are to cast stoneskin and heal the aftermath, or gamble on benediction.
SCH - if you know the tank is going to take spike damage -> Adloquium, then... maybe Ruin 2 for the blind, Sacred Soil, use a Lustrate for the aftermath, maybe your fairy can give a 20% healing boost, maybe rouse the fairy too for more healing. Also shadowflare for the slow if it works

The main difference is mp management, emnity management, and having options. It's not hard for me to see that SCH plainly wins in all three categories. The one category that WHM does win at, i.e. raw healing, a SCH can challenge with mitigation, and really there is nothing that requires all that raw healing other than enrage pulses.

I can usually handle the mp issues, and usually the emnity issues, but my inner WHM is just jealous that my inner SCH gets all these cool multitasking toys while the itself is stuck in either/or land.

What is the point of posts like this? :<

For example you never mentioned Holy, or Presence of Mind, or Repose, or Divine Seal. ;x The two classes shouldn't really be looked at equivalently like that. It doesn't really work, imho. A good player makes for a good WHM *or* a good SCH.

[Aphrini]

Soooo....and let me get this straight here Jeykama, cause I am a little bit confused.

"Guess you didn't get the memo that I was being facetious about "hate" since I wouldn't have a SCH50 if I really hated the job. If you want to go there though...

WHM -blah, blah, blah sucks
SCH - blah , blah ,blah epeen

WHM - gets Regen at 35. Gets terrified of using it because the game never outright tells you that overheals are massive threat. OMFG REGEN!!! blah, blah sucky WHM
SCH - "even go afk... I had a SCH healer in a lowbie dungeon that afk/followed on me as their fairy healed the entire instance" LAZY EFFING SCH THE TOTAL PROBLEM!

WHM - gets Esuna at 18, blah, blah, blah, Jealous, blah, blah, some bs, blah, blah
SCH - gets Leeches at 40, wishes they had it 8 levels earlier but healed through the Brayflox dragon anyway while never running out of mp. Both cases I've healed with the tanks getting hit by around 3 breaths....blah, blah MORE epeen "

[PArcher]

SNIP

Um...a good WHM doesn't need Shroud until after 38 anyway. Heck, even though you can say its the "lesser" Aetherflow, a good WHM can heal long battles and keep mana over 50%, especially getting lucky on Freecure procs (only free healing a SCH gets is Succor if it procs from Sacred Soil) and using Regen wisely. Divine Seal also helps a ton with mana management, since if your heals do more, you don't have to cast as many spells...

Terrified of Regen? Most mid-level dungeons Regen is my primary source of healing. Heck, I've healed almost an entire Cutter's Cry using nothing but Regen (with a few Esuna and Cures on bosses)...and it was DF'ed with a WAR as tank. I use Regen all the time post-50 as well, to supplement my Cures. Hard to rely on Eos's Regen, even when you have her on obey, thanks to the long downtime.

Yes, you can heal through all the poison and sludge that happens before getting leeches...but where Esuna is really useful is paralysis. Sure, its not all that common...but in the DF, someone getting paralyzed can make or break a fight. And if you have undergeared people getting poisoned in the DF...yeah, Esuna is your best friend. I've healed many Brayflox DFs as a WHM with no BRD and had no MP issues, even with heavy Esuna usage.

Stoneskin everyone before every pull so your tank has a chance to grab and hold aggro before you open up with heals. I call that an aggro-management win. Adlo is nice, but it only stops one, maybe two hits, regardless of who its on, whereas a Stoneskin can keep a good WAR protected for several hits, and can "heal" them better than any actual healing spell (minus heavily bonus'ed crits).


Now, I'm not saying SCH is bad (just got my SCH Relic last night. Very interesting double-SCH Titan run), but throwing WHM under the bus like that is...not right. They play VERY differently from each other, and if you try to play one like the other you will run into problems. The two jobs compliment each other really well, one's strength's is the other's weakness, and covering for each other makes them both shine.

[File2ish]

Guess you didn't get the memo that I was being facetious about "hate" since I wouldn't have a SCH50 if I really hated the job. If you want to go there though...

I think the two jobs are meant to compliment each other in 2 healer party situations while still being entirely useful in single healer situations. WHM heals large amounts of HP on single targets and has some damage mitigation and regenerative healing useful for the whole party. SCH is able to mitigate damage and apply regenerative healing far better than WHM, but for less significant (single) cures. In my opinion, the best setup for healers in a party would be to have 1 WHM and 1 SCH. SCH to mitigate damage and WHM to apply the large cures. They compliment each other in many ways, it's not a "X is better than Y" situation.

[Aphrini]

I am pretty sure I posted multiple posts where I said I prefer SCH to heal with me. However as stated by others if a SCH goes into a boss fight with the normal I can let my fairy handle this while I help DPS that they would have with trash pulls then it puts un-needed stress on the other healer. The SCH WAS being lazy it DOES happen furthermore I also stated that WHM do it too. Your argument is without merit and unlike most that were trying to be PC I answered the OP question.

[Fran636]

As a sch I've never seen myself wishing for Medica II =p I'm actually pretty content with Succor. I'll have mine crit for 500-600 so not only did I heal that much hp to all those around me but prevent that much dmg as well

[Kyomih]

I play both SCH and WHM in Coil and high end content and I love both. I never got hate on either or hated one another SCH or WHM.
SCH are, however, harder to play. More to keep track on and more decisions to make that can go wrong. WHM is more forgiving if something goes horribly wrong and easier to react to without having to plan properly first.
So, it's easier to run into a mediocre or bad SCH than a bad WHM.

With that said, I love both classes and I love playing both and together with others playing the class I don't play at that time. The mechanics of both compliment each other perfectly.
Yes some fights are better suited for a SCH or WHM but in the end both get the job done.

So, let's just all play together and keep people alive, shall we?

[Lilysparkle]

Everyone seems to be mentioning occasional bad healers (some in reference to SCH), and it's making me wonder what it is that these SCH are doing badly? Anyone willing to share?

Because I do begin to wonder that this might be a perception thing. Due to WHM setting the bar on raw healing imho, if a SCH is seen to be doing "less" than this, they are 'bad'? ;o SCH was my first 50 (I lvled WHM also, after it), and I have to admit that sometimes, finding the correct balance is hard on SCH. I don't know if I can explain this well - and it may only be something you can relate to when you've healed one of the Primal HMs as both WHM and SCH, for example. :< Should they be expected to heal as well as a WHM in group situations and that if it's perceived that they aren't, they're 'bad'? Maybe they *can* in some situations, but it maybe shouldn't be used to set the 'standard'. Basically what I am saying is, if you're a WHM and think a SCH isn't playing very well, please take time to consider why you think that.

For me, I'd consider a SCH playing normally if say during Titan HM; as just one single example, they are refreshing Succor on everyone all the time - pre-casting it before Geocrush, Sacred Soil during Geocrush, Adloquium on the tank, Leeches on ppl breaking out of Gaol to remove the det down debuff, continually repositioning Eos/Selene after landslides, and Lustrate + Eye for an Eye on tank when necessary. I'd consider a SCH to be playing very well, if they do all of that, and are weaving in Cleric Stance and adding some DPS (during heartphase and/or gaols, or anytime), also using Virus before Mountain Buster, timing Rouse+Whispering Dawn for nasty moments, and managing to Swiftcast+Raise if someone did die.