Perspective as "THE OTHER" tank class.

[Sylari]

yeah basically a paladin in lore is a justice filled goody goody Dudley Dooright type character that thinks he's better than everyone.

The paladins in the lore are the elite guard of the sultana of Ul'dah.

[OmegaSinX]

If a WAR pulls just as much as a PLD, they require a lot more healing since they're doing without Wrath (because of Overpower spam) and have a terrible CD suite. Since they require more healing, the healer cannot contribute as much (or any) damage, which invalidates your last statement. When you've got a WAR tank, the healer can't DPS so, honestly, you'll only ever have 3 people throwing out AoE DPS regardless of composition. It's also not as if a WAR tank can contribute anywhere *near* the same amount of damage as a DPS or even a healer.



The other thing you're forgetting about is resource management. A WAR throwing Overpower often enough for the damage is make a difference is going to run out of TP *insanely* fast. Unless the BRD is giving out Army's Paeon (which means no Mage's Ballad, which means less damage from BLM and WHM), the WAR is going to have to have downtime at some point for resource regeneration.

That 10 minute WP is, by far, the fastest WAR speed run I've ever seen, but I know several groups that can reliably run 8 minute WPs with a PLD tank. Some of the most important tricks aren't in fighting the big trash packs either. One of the best ways to clip time off of the run is to minimize damage in the boss fights so that the healer can DPS the entire time. If your healer is having to do more than Regen on the tank on either of the two first bosses, you're doing it wrong

This is all assumption based on the stigma of WAR's bad Mitigation. Healing is not as big of as an issue as people assume it to be because most people never tried WP SR with WAR. Healers have no issues healing me when I run SR, Espcially with SCH. When I SR with my FC WHM, He Spams Holy 2-3 Times a Fight.

With WAR, At least there is the possibilty for all 4 Players to AoE DPS. With PLD thats not even a option. Circle of Scorn is too weak to make a big enough impact..... Vengeance every 2mins, Steel Cyclone, and Berserk Overpowers on the other hand.....

Dont knock it until you try it. I have both PLD and WAR and I never touch my PLD when I do WP SR's unless its a pug group where it is a dice roll on how geared players are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcNVJYTAZow

The Run Above Demonstrates WHM can Spam Holy with WAR in Party. Also Debunking your theory of how TP and MP would be a issue if BRD uses Army (This video didnt even have a BRD). Also, The WAR in the Video didnt have any ilvl 90 Accessories nor did he have Full Allagan/AF. Im sure if he/she did ( or even Better, Gryphonskin Accessories) the run would be faster.

[Leiron]

Just so you know...that link you made, there is a youtube link of a Paladin doing it in Darklight gear in lesser time.

That run involves a Warrior being much better geared by comparison.
Let alone speed runs are hardly indicative of tanking capability, because they involve people being over geared for the content, so it is hardly a valid comparison for tanking capability at all.

[Vortok]

If you overgear the instance to the point that the stronger defensive cooldowns of a PLD don't matter to keep the tank alive, then sure Overpower actually doing damage will make it the better option.

Holy blows Overpower's damage out the window, as not only do healers have a ton of Mind (compared to tanks generally not having tons of strength) that gets converted with Cleric Stance (+10% damage on top), they generally have plenty of Crit or Determination as well that tanks, as a general rule, won't have in abundance. As long as PLD allows a WHM to spam more Holys than they could with a WAR (Hallowed Ground says hi), they'll still be the faster option. I'm sure someone can do the math to figure out how many extra Holy spells a WHM needs to get off compared to the number of Overpowers used before the pull is dead.

With a SCH the extra durability a PLD's cooldowns provide is less of a concern, since SCH doesn't have a whole lot of aoe oomph past Shadowflare (roughly equal to one holy if it's up for the full 30s duration). They usually aren't gonna have time to cast dots and bane them (to a mere 3 other targets) and Miasma II hits like a wet noodle. The Slow from Shadowflare also lowers the incoming damage, making a WARs lack of hyper-awesome defensive cooldowns less of an issue as well (compared to the few seconds of stun from Holy followed by nothing for the rest of the pull). There is the haste buffs from Selene, but depending on their rotation of choice a BLM is often waiting on static mana regen ticks (every 3s) to repeat their aoe rotation so haste from Selene may not really speed things up for them all that much. That's all mostly to say that much like PLD vs WAR, SCH can do just fine as well if the player doesn't have WHM leveled (though a bit more clearly behind WHM in terms of speed provided) and probably is better paired with a WAR so that Overpower can offset the loss of Holy, as the PLD cooldowns shouldn't be needed.

There's also the point that a PLD can afford to use sprint, though I think that's mostly a 'at a lower gear level than WAR' thing, as eventually arriving with low TP won't matter for the WAR either. Likely more of a gear level of the party as a whole (how fast packs die) rather than PLD vs WAR gear difference.


That said, both tanks can do the instance pretty fast. Everyone knows that how good your WHM is (and aoe dps in general) is a large factor in how fast the run goes.

Post 2.1 should be interesting for WARs at multiple gear levels, between the Vengeance buff, the ability to Inner Beast as Holy is hitting stun DR to smooth the transition into healing/eek out another Holy (otherwise Steel Cyclone/Unchained may be the better usage), and being able to spend Wrath from Infuriate without losing the healing buff in general.

[PetiteMalFleur]

I love running content with a WAR. Only time it gets harder is when the WAR is taking 1k+ damage. Which is really only in Titan and coil. I think the stigma comes partially from people who just don't understand how WAR mechanics work.

I did a higher level dungeon with a DF WAR who kept dropping all his wrath stacks as soon as he hit 5 stacks even if he had almost full health. He also wasn't positioning the mobs in front of him. The healer was spamming to keep him up and would eventually pull hate. I made a few suggestions, and the healer who mains as paladin talked with him about some basic tanking. The warrior was very grateful for the suggestions and the difference was immense. I'm sure a lot of people would have just written it off as "warriors suck." With all the paladin cooldowns some basic tanking mistakes can be convered up where warriors are left exposed when making the same mistakes.

[OmegaSinX]

I did a higher level dungeon with a DF WAR who kept dropping all his wrath stacks as soon as he hit 5 stacks even if he had almost full health.

I'm guilty of this also, but thats only because I'm over Geared so when I farm AK, I Spam Steel Cyclone & Inner Beast 2-3 times a fight. Makes things alot quicker. half the time healer spam holy or dps and doesnt heal because fights are over quick. Now that in 2.1 you wont need wrath for healing bonus, expect to see WAR's go Berserk.

[PetiteMalFleur]

I'm guilty of this also, but thats only because I'm over Geared so when I farm AK, I Spam Steel Cyclone & Inner Beast 2-3 times a fight. Makes things alot quicker. half the time healer spam holy or dps and doesnt heal because fights are over quick. Now that in 2.1 you wont need wrath for healing bonus, expect to see WAR's go Berserk.

I usually run AK with a WAR. I notice very little difference healing them in this content and will ask them to pull about 6+ mobs at a time. Only one time when the tank pulled a large group with the dullahan, was then crit for 6k followed by a 1.1k crit from a second mob was I /sadface.

[Zakalwe]

I have literally zero problem tanking in coil.. and I'll have even less of a problem after the patch lol

Literally? Lol, then after the patch you'll have -1 problem?

But I agree, once a tank is geared enough to pass Titan's gear check, tanking Titan is rediculously easy. Now, getting a team together who can do the tough side of the fight, that can be a little harder.