[DEV] Time sinks and satisfaction, a plea from one of your hardcore fans

[Malakhim]

There's a reason timesinks have a negative meaning attached.

Sitting around waiting for the Valkurm Emperor wasn't work. It was waiting around like a dingbat, when you could have been doing something else. Once he actually spawns and you get the pull, he isn't even that hard to kill. Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...

A better way of introducing meaningful content would be to create quest lines where you have to solve some difficult puzzle(maybe as a party or a community), or defeat several challenging enemies within a set time limit as well as other limits like no magic or something, or maybe just a boss rush dungeon to finally reach a chest or have a chance to lot for some rare gear. The reward should be in a challenging fight coupled with a cool piece 'o loot, and maybe some storyline or something.

[Anty]

There's a reason timesinks have a negative meaning attached.

Sitting around waiting for the Valkurm Emperor wasn't work. It was waiting around like a dingbat, when you could have been doing something else. Once he actually spawns and you get the pull, he isn't even that hard to kill. Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...

A better way of introducing meaningful content would be to create quest lines where you have to solve some difficult puzzle(maybe as a party or a community), or defeat several challenging enemies within a set time limit as well as other limits like no magic or something, or maybe just a boss rush dungeon to finally reach a chest or have a chance to lot for some rare gear. The reward should be in a challenging fight coupled with a cool piece 'o loot, and maybe some storyline or something.

true, hard AND fun content that isnt easy to accomplish and needs more then just 1 or 2 attempts is what is much better and can also be a timesink. But a sink you are having fun with. Ofc its harder to implement or well lets say needs more creativity but thats the challenge mmo devs need to succeed imho.

[MeowyWowie]

Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...

Who said anything about them being hard?

[Malakhim]

Who said anything about them being hard?

Maybe my wording was off. I probably should've said worthwhile. I personally can't fathom why anyone would consider spending hours of real time hunting a weak mob that may or may not give an item that you can replace eventually worthwhile, and then use it as an example about the good things in FFXI.

Like I always say, like what you like, but wasted time is still wasted time, especially when you could have gotten the item in BCNM.

[Kiara]

Hi Meowy,

Good topic, and one I can empathize with you on.

I think there are valid points on both sides for what was "great" or "bad" about FF XI's HNM Camps.

While I loved the excitement at claiming Nidhogg against a bunch of other LSs, there was just as much frustration / angst / disappointment on not claiming the HNM, reflecting back and realizing you just wasted HOURS of your life with no claim. And even if you got the claim, you had a high chance of getting no drop.

I realize that's part of the "charm" of FF XI's HNMs and I certainly hate the opposite, which is what we're seeing in FF XIV. I agree with Meowy that right now in XIV, these new R30 NMs with their 2 *Minute* Respawn Times and generous drop rates, make it really... boring and kinda sad. We go in, get a kill (if no drop, then wait 2 minutes, try again and usually get it within 1 - 5 tries), and we're done.

There should be a balance, and I think Physic brought up a great example with something like Relic Weapons.

THAT was an overarching goal / time sink that really felt rewarding as you built up for it (a little too epic maybe (^_^; but still a good, long-term goal). Or multi-step Quests and Challenges with interesting Puzzles and Boss Fights, that may take multiple tries and planning, but at you feel great after beating it.

I enjoyed Sky / Kirin & Sea and Dynamis (64-player version when it first came out), and Relic Weapons. I loved *aspects* of the HNMs, but I *hated* the wasted time and loss in claims and the whole "JP server advantage"-type arguments that came out of that, or Bot Claims, etc.

So, I definitely vote "YES!" to overarching, grand, long-term Goals and Content. Stuff to allow those that want to invest the time to work towards. But probably not 24 Hour Respawning HNMs that would probably be overcamped and overclaimed with today's advanced Bot programming.

[LifeStop]

There's a reason timesinks have a negative meaning attached.

Sitting around waiting for the Valkurm Emperor wasn't work. It was waiting around like a dingbat, when you could have been doing something else. Once he actually spawns and you get the pull, he isn't even that hard to kill. Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...

A better way of introducing meaningful content would be to create quest lines where you have to solve some difficult puzzle(maybe as a party or a community), or defeat several challenging enemies within a set time limit as well as other limits like no magic or something, or maybe just a boss rush dungeon to finally reach a chest or have a chance to lot for some rare gear. The reward should be in a challenging fight coupled with a cool piece 'o loot, and maybe some storyline or something.

I agree. Pride and reputation should be built from completing difficult tasks, and not simply putting in more time than other players.

Sure, camping an easy (but hard to claim) NM in ffxi showed dedication, but it took little skill and was often so tedious that it made me question if I was still playing a game. Some days I felt as though I had taken on a second job for which I would never be paid.

I know not everyone enjoyed it as much as me, but I really liked Nyzul Isle & Sea access (pre-nerf) in FFXI. I hope that similar content will be added to FFXIV.

[Jynx]

Thankfully the materia system looks like it could be a nice time-sink to get your optimal stats on an item or the perfect type of materia. Experimenting on what Materia results from weapons/armour and getting the HQ materia from them will also be a good gold/time sink.

SE seems to actually be on the ball with some of these changes. I'm giving them the benifit of the doubt and it seems like a good way to waste some time.

[MeowyWowie]

I'm sorry you feel that way Duelle. But in my mind, XI nailed it when it game to gear. I had plenty of fun camping NMs as did many others. If NM's aren't your cup of tea, that's fine. Many people love the competition though. But again, this isn't only about NMs, XI's endgame was the same thing. The best stuff took time and effort to obtain, and they lasted you forever.

If everything was instantly rendered obsolete with each new patch, then the time sinks would have killed the game a very long time ago. XI was a hardcore game, in the sense that you had to really work for the best stuff. XIV is the complete opposite of that. For nearly everyone I know in the game, this is the main thing that will end up pushing them away. I think SE would do well do cater to BOTH crowds.

[Mack]

I completely agree. I hate how the "casuals" will come on here and no doubt bash this idea over its head but in reality I was more or less a casual player for 3 years of FFXI and not once did I care that I never owned an Emperor's Hairpin or Leaping Boots (or whatever they were called) or Krakan's Club but let me tell you I sure as hell cared when I stumbled across JEJ one day and got the Amulet, its because it meant something in the game world and was totally worth it...I must have fought that Rabbit 50 times but I got it at long last and it was at a time I wasn't even anticipating the NM. I think FFXI succeeded in that regard and FFXIV has failed big time so far.

The other day I went NM hunting with my LS and we basically went through all the NMs and got everyone in the group (8 people) whatever drop they wanted...there was no satisfaction felt, no sense of accomplishment, nothing. We got the item and we were on our way to the next NM, which spawned every 2 minutes and wasn't camped by anyone else. I hate time sinks as much as the next person, but only if those time sinks aren't rewarding...FFXIV's time sinks are in all the wrong places - leves, quests, and storyline and majority of the sinks have you running around all over the world map for something so petty at the end. In FFXI the time sinks weren't optional a lot of the time but if FFXIV can fix that while maintaining some time sinks that actually reward you, who cares if you're casual and you don't like it? there's plenty of other content there that caters to you. I hope they listen to this thread TC.

P.S. and for the record I don't mean time sinks in the form of NMs only I mean there were storyline quests or armor quests or job quests in FFXI that took a little more effort than traversing a map where nothing agros.

[ShinChuck]

When Square-Enix released FFXI they revolutionized a certain aspect of MMOs in general. To this this date, the only other MMO on the market that has adopted this change is FFXIV. It is one of the main reasons I prefer FF's 2 MMOs over any other. So what was this brilliant idea of theirs you say? The ability to level every class on one character. So what does this mean for us, the players?

Square Enix, your multi-class per character concept was probably the best idea out of both of your FF MMOs.

What? No, you can do this in various games, going as far back as text-based MUDs in the early 90s. Don't get me wrong, I love that you can do this, and more games should allow it, but it's hardly a new and original SE idea.