PLD Negotiation (Vs WAR)

[TaneshimaPopura]

Been there, was wrong too. It takes time to see it but I'm sure you will see it. A 200 damage reduced by 20% will deal 160 Dmg but you cannot heal 200 DMG with 20% more healing from 160 cause it will only heal 192HP. Your 8 HP deficit is the 5%.

[Dhex]

My mah math was slightly off.

eHp on WAR and PLD post-patch is equal - it is/was not equal pre-patch due to Wrath Mechanics being tied to the healing bonus.

[Gilthas]

You could be right, if being "full life" DID matter. You don't need to be full life, you just want NOT to drop to 0.
So your 5000 HP PLD took 160 and is now at 5840, but your 6250 (5000*1.25 for Defiance) HP WAR is still at 6050 HP after taking 200.

Umm...

Replace full life with "X amount of HP needed to not drop to 0 in the next attack" and the math is exactly the same.

[glen7187]

Not to blow things up here, but my posts were just to show that Shield Oath and Defiance are not really equal... Defiance needs that extra 5% healing to make it on par or better than Shield Oath in terms of effectiveness..

BUT...

If you want to talk in terms of eHP, Reynhart is correct in that regards. Using Valk's definition:
EHP = (Base HP + 15 x dVIT) x (100/(100 – % damage reduction))

If you just pretend the base HP is 5000 and ignore the 15 X dVIT part, you have
PLD eHP = 5000 HP x (100/(100 – % damage reduction)) = 5000 HP x (100/80) = 6250
WAR eHP = (5000 HP x 1.25) x (100/(100 - % damage reduction)) = 6250 x (100/100) = 6250

So both have the same eHP in terms of this definition. It's just the required healing after a hit that makes Shield Oath and Defiance slightly unequal.

[Zoomie]

Blaa Blaa Blaa

No one is saying that shield oath LITERALLY buffs healing done to Paladins. However by YOUR OWN admission healing a paladin to full takes less healing than it does to heal said warrior to full despite the warrior having 20% increased healing taken.

"Effective" healing bonus. Not actual green numbers equaling hit points healed rather the value or "worth" of said numbers. When a healer heals a paladin for 160 those 160hp are worth more than the 192hp that the SAME heal would do to a warrior. I'm not sure how much more clear this can be made.

The entire point of saying that shield oath has an effective, EFFECTIVE not LITERAL, healing buff is to combat people like you who point out that the 20% healing bonus on defiance somehow makes it better or even on par with shield oath.

[Gilthas]

Shield Oath PLD HP: 5250

WAR Defiance: 6300 (WAR HP: 5250)

Post-patch*

DMG 6300

PLD takes -> 6300 - (6300 x .2) or 6300 - 1260 = 5040 DMG taken.

No buffs PLD HP: 210 @ 4% HP
Rampart PLD HP: 1218 @ 20% HP

No buffs WAR HP: 0 @ 0% HP
With Inner Beast buff - WAR HP: 1260 @ 20% HP

I knew something was wrong here. You need to multiply the WAR's HP by 1.25, not 1.2

Unless you were making some other point.

6562 - 6300 = 262 or 3% (feel better?)

eHP wise WAR/PLD are almost equal post-patch is all I'm saying - even more so with that little correction. PLD still has the benefit of everything is "on-demand" whereas WAR is "time-it-right".

Not sure why there's threads asking for changes to PLD.

Either way the math /is/ relatively accurate from a % vs % standpoint and the higher the damage climbs the more you prioritize the PLD over WAR from an ease of use standpoint. Even post-patch.

If by relatively accurate you mean "incorrectly made it seem that Paladins can survive a hit that would kill a Warrior", yeah, I guess its relatively accurate.

If a Paladin and a Warrior have the same base HP, same defense relevant stats and are using Shield Oath and Defiance, anything* that kills a Warrior will also kill a Paladin.

*it might be possible that this isn't true depending on how damage and HP values are rounded, but it will never be a difference as huge as the missing 262 HP on the Warrior.

[Dhex]

I knew something was wrong here. You need to multiply the WAR's HP by 1.25, not 1.2

Unless you were making some other point.

6562 - 6300 = 262 or 3% (feel better?)

eHP wise WAR/PLD are almost equal post-patch is all I'm saying - even more so with that little correction. PLD still has the benefit of everything is "on-demand" whereas WAR is "time-it-right".

Not sure why there's threads asking for changes to PLD.

Either way the math /is/ relatively accurate from a % vs % standpoint and the higher the damage climbs the more you prioritize the PLD over WAR from an ease of use standpoint. Even post-patch.

[Zoomie]

SNIP

You're missing it again and its right there in your own math.

A 5000hp PLD takes a hit for 3000 (3000*8 = 2400) and has 2600hp left. PLD gets healed for 1000 which puts him at 3600 (72%hp)
A 6250hp WAR takes a hit for 3000 and has 3250hp left. WAR gets healed for 1000 (1000*1.20 = 1200) which puts him at 4450 (71%hp)

Lets repeat this as bosses don't stop at one hit!

Our now 3600hp PLD takes 2400dmg and has 1200 hp left and is then healed for 1000 leaving them at 2200 (44%hp)

Our now 4450hp WAR takes 3000dmg and has 1450 left and is then healed for 1200 leaving them at 2650 (42%hp)

Sadly the boss comes at us once again and now hits us for exactly 2650...

The PLD takes 2120 (2650*.8) and limps away with 80hp.

The WAR dies...

Effective healing is a thing as the disparity becomes larger and larger as the fight goes on. If the warrior had been healed an extra 5% each time they would have lived with 100hp. Magically that 100hp the WAR needed to live is exactly equal to our living PLD's 80hp + shield oath mitigation! The point being that WAR/PLD eHP is exactly the same but WAR's require 5% more healing to maintain said eHP.

/removes magician's hat

[Dhex]

-

You're better at quick math than me; /sulk.

[Reynhart]

You're missing it again and its right there in your own math.

A 5000hp PLD takes a hit for 3000 (3000.8 = 2400) and has 2600hp left. PLD gets healed for 1000 which puts him at 3600 (72%hp)
A 6250hp WAR takes a hit for 3000 and has 3250hp left. WAR gets healed for 1000 (1000*1.20 = 1200) which puts him at 4450 (71%hp)

Lets repeat this as bosses don't stop at one hit!

Our now 3600hp PLD takes 2400dmg and has 1200 hp left and is then healed for 1000 leaving them at 2200 (44%hp)

Our now 4450hp WAR takes 3000dmg and has 1450 left and is then healed for 1200 leaving them at 2650 (42%hp)

Sadly the boss comes at us once again and now hits us for exactly 2650...

The PLD takes 2120 (2650*.8) and limps away with 80hp.

The WAR dies...
/removes magician's hat

Why do you all put aside the fact that WAR is supposed to heal itself ? And besides, with the next update, it will mitigate some damage too, with average cooldowns shorter than PLD.