PLD Negotiation (Vs WAR)

[Dhex]

I knew something was wrong here. You need to multiply the WAR's HP by 1.25, not 1.2

Unless you were making some other point.

6562 - 6300 = 262 or 3% (feel better?)

eHP wise WAR/PLD are almost equal post-patch is all I'm saying - even more so with that little correction. PLD still has the benefit of everything is "on-demand" whereas WAR is "time-it-right".

Not sure why there's threads asking for changes to PLD.

Either way the math /is/ relatively accurate from a % vs % standpoint and the higher the damage climbs the more you prioritize the PLD over WAR from an ease of use standpoint. Even post-patch.

[Dhex]

If a Paladin and a Warrior have the same base HP, same defense relevant stats and are using Shield Oath and Defiance, anything* that kills a Warrior will also kill a Paladin.

They pretty much have the same eHP - the biggest variable for Warrior vs. Paladin is WAR gets to heal itself every so often; has a slightly lower DR for Sentinel vs Vengeance;equal DR if WAR times it right for Rampart vs Inner Beast & HP returns compensate for Vengeance/Sentinel imbalance? (intentional offset for HP returns??) then you'd have Thrill of Battle + Holmgag vs Hallowed Ground, higher enmity on the base of Defiance to compensate for tri/bi rotation on WAR and healing enmity generation; yardle fardle it's very balanced overall eHP is essentially the same.

So yeah I'll gut my post - WAR/PLD baseline are within 1% WAR can't be one-shotted unless PLD is one-shotted; that changes as the gap can grow over duration of battle but it'd be rare (? Maybe) - from a healing and healing enmity gen standpoint I think PLD has "ease-of-use" stamped all over.

[glen7187]

Not to blow things up here, but my posts were just to show that Shield Oath and Defiance are not really equal... Defiance needs that extra 5% healing to make it on par or better than Shield Oath in terms of effectiveness..

BUT...

If you want to talk in terms of eHP, Reynhart is correct in that regards. Using Valk's definition:
EHP = (Base HP + 15 x dVIT) x (100/(100 – % damage reduction))

If you just pretend the base HP is 5000 and ignore the 15 X dVIT part, you have
PLD eHP = 5000 HP x (100/(100 – % damage reduction)) = 5000 HP x (100/80) = 6250
WAR eHP = (5000 HP x 1.25) x (100/(100 - % damage reduction)) = 6250 x (100/100) = 6250

So both have the same eHP in terms of this definition. It's just the required healing after a hit that makes Shield Oath and Defiance slightly unequal.

[Leiron]

Wll, technically no matter the spec its a mitigation spec, but the way it mitigates can be done differently.

RIFT: Every time the rogue teleports, a shield is created that absorbs 10% of incoming damage on up to X amount of damage taken.

Warrior: Void knight takes 10% less damage.

Dark knight: While the DK is under this effect, 10% of all damage taken is absorbed as health.

Same mitigation, just done differently.

[Paikis]

Same mitigation, just done differently.

Actually not. The Dark Knight would have to survive the full 100%, THEN get his 10% back, whereas the other two only have to survive 90% of the damage. Unless of course it just flavour text and the DK is only taking 90% of the damage anyway.

If you're going to be a Soak Tank, then you need to have a healing received bonus or lots of self heals, *and* (this is important) lots more effective health than a mitigation tank.

[Leiron]

Actually not. The Dark Knight would have to survive the full 100%,

That was the point.
It was the assumption that the tank does not get one shot.

If you're going to be a Soak Tank, then you need to have a healing received bonus or lots of self heals, *and* (this is important) lots more effective health than a mitigation tank.

Soak tanks don't really work out unfortunately.
I've not seen any games run soak types since EQ2 and Istaria I believe.

[Asierid]

A reaction based tank is and will always be worse than a passive tank. WAR needs at least some form of passive mitigation otherwise it will always be worse than PLD. Basing tank ability on the ability to heal damage taken is fine, but not when you start hitting content like Titan and Coil (assume you're not over geared) where stuff starts chunking your HP like no tomorrow. It's a needed change.

Inner Beast doesn't do squat if you're dead.

[Reynhart]

A reaction based tank is and will always be worse than a passive tank. WAR needs at least some form of passive mitigation otherwise it will always be worse than PLD. Basing tank ability on the ability to heal damage taken is fine, but not when you start hitting content like Titan and Coil (assume you're not over geared) where stuff starts chunking your HP like no tomorrow. It's a needed change.

Inner Beast doesn't do squat if you're dead.

WAR have enough HP to take the first Mountain Buster without any mitigation. Afterwards, the healers needs to cure you enough so that you can eat the next one. Rinse, repeat.
To be effective on harder content, I think the WAR needs more HP. To keep the "Massive HP Pool, reaction self heal" approach.

[Zoomie]

WAR have enough HP to take the first Mountain Buster without any mitigation. Afterwards, the healers needs to cure you enough so that you can eat the next one. Rinse, repeat.
To be effective on harder content, I think the WAR needs more HP. To keep the "Massive HP Pool, reaction self heal" approach.

The problem with simply giving warriors more HP and leaving their "self heals" they way they are is does not scale with gear nearly as quickly as the content will. IB would need to be some kind of % total HP heal rather than % dmg done as content and HP scale so much faster than warrior dmg does.

[Kitru]

IB would need to be some kind of % total HP heal rather than % dmg done as content and HP scale so much faster than warrior dmg does.

Actually, damage and max hp scale at roughly the same rate because they're both gear dependent. Changing the self heal on Inner Beast would do jack and squat for actually balanced: 20% of max hp in 8 man content is *hugely* different from 20% of max hp in 4 man content (re: in the first, it's enough to let you solo a number of boss fights; in the second, it's barely enough to help you survive the follow up).

For self healing to be a useful and balanced form of mitigation, it needs to scale with *incoming damage*, not outgoing damage or max hp. Tank mitigation *has* to scale with incoming damage. If it doesn't, it's either hugely overpowered in 4 man content or hugely underpowered in 8 man content.