Det, SS, Crit

[T0rin]

One person is using numbers based on testing, the other says nu-uh and uses speculative numbers. Guess who I'll believe for now.

Using different sets of numbers based on testing, and coming to personal conclusions on each side. Neither of us did the testing we both make reference to, and neither of us can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are right. We're also comparing numbers established in different contexts, which is apples and oranges at best. Believe what you want of course, but you should probably make the effort to research the issue on your own.

Nobody has a definitive answer here, we can both admit that.

[Peptaru]

I don't have any data to provide, I suppose all my 'learnings' have been anecdotal see: not math

Just because Valk says that DTR works one specific way for BLM stuff [more than blm stuff], doesn't make it true, and doesn't mean the same applies to everything, even if it were.

I cannot honestly say if I am more or less confused about the role of DTR in terms of item prioritization... Occam's Razor would suggest [if only it were simple]

But yes, admittedly, it is all speculation and theorycraft at this point.

Believe what you want of course, but you should probably make the effort to research the issue on your own.
Nobody has a definitive answer here, we can both admit that.

I have read more math discussions about ffxiv than you can imagine, but I am glad to see you have not abandoned your condescending tone. I'll rephrase? One person is posting numbers and math with reasons and interpretations. You are posting things like seems to, anecdotal, speculation, and that you are confused about the role of DTR in gearing and then trying to math backwards to make the numbers fit your theory. . .

[T0rin]

I have read more math discussions about ffxiv than you can imagine, but I am glad to see you have not abandoned your condescending tone. I'll rephrase? One person is posting numbers and math with reasons and interpretations. You are posting things like seems to, anecdotal, speculation, and that you are confused about the role of DTR in gearing and then trying to math backwards to make the numbers fit your theory. . .

Not my theories, I was just presenting conclusions of others that I had read. I assume you realize that all of this theorycrafting and 'math' that has actually been done is all one big reverse engineering process. I am not trying to make anything fit 'my' theory, I have no theory. The consensus that I have read seems to indicate that the impact of DTR are low potency skills is less beneficial than higher potency skills, which is what allows critical hit chance as a secondary stat to stand out from determination.

Nobody in this thread has done any conclusive work on the subject, even EasymodeX is regurgitating other people's analysis and his/her interpretations of them.

The simply fact is nobody knows the truth, we all only have anecdotal evidence, speculation and some level of reverse engineered math in order to support a _hypothesis_ about how DTR scales and affects the damage formulas. If it was an actual known thing, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

If anyone has been condescending here, it would be you. I've been fairly open minded about this whole process, and am completely accepting of a reality in which my understanding of how DTR works is completely off base. I am mainly going off of the work of others, and my understanding is the sum of various works on the subject. From all of the test data I've seen and what little testing I have done and seen first hand, it would seem that the benefit of DTR on damage output of low potency DoTs is fairly small. It could be that DTR scales as a percentage off the base potency, it could be that DTR is applied to the whole duration of a DoT, not each individual tick, hence the small boosts to damage ticks.

Either way, I was presenting my understanding of how it functions, and never have I said that my understanding is conclusive. Nothing currently known about damage math is conclusive, because it is all reverse engineered from in-game visual output.

[Exstal]

Do you have a thread or link that supports DTR is a % modifier?

I can't see % modifier being correct, granted my own SMN's gear is pathetic.

244 DTR => 78-87 Bio tick
266 DTR => 79-88 Bio tick

412 INT (because I leveled ACN for SCH)

[EasymodeX]

Do you have a thread or link that supports DTR is a % modifier?

There is no good consensus on the way DTR actually fits into the damage equation.

In all likelihood it's not a flat % modifier, but that doesn't actually matter, so it wasn't worth discussing in this thread.

[Akirakogami]

isn't determination go into your attack power or healing power? i don't think it gives WAR or PLD more vitality.

[Ragnirok]

isn't determination go into your attack power or healing power? i don't think it gives WAR or PLD more vitality.

Ya it has no bearing on VIT at all. Why do you ask?

[EasymodeX]

From all of the test data I've seen and what little testing I have done and seen first hand, it would seem that the benefit of DTR on damage output of low potency DoTs is fairly small.

This isn't an accurate way of perceiving it. The benefit of any stat on a low potency attack is small compared to a high potency attack because higher potency amplifies the result of the stat change.

That DTR has a "small" effect on low potency DoTs is not surprising in the least. CRT has an equally small effect on low potency DoTs.

The real crux of this is whether or not the damage is actually being truncated per DoT per tick.

Even in the case that it is, DTR still has the same value as it has for all other classes -- except it has more awkward thresholds where you gain "0" value for a few points, then you gain the full accumulated value, etc. As a result it's more annoying to itemize for / deal with, but its general value is not diminished.

The only way a SMN is going to have meaningfully poorer returns from DTR is if other mechanics (such as the pet) result in DTR simply being ineffective or something (e.g. if pets had their own DTR, ignoring yours, which is unlikely).

[T0rin]

Well, I'm generalizing, of course. The true cause of the visually noticeable difference in DoT damage is unknown to me. From my understanding, I assume it boils down to to truncated damage, simply on the merit of not having anything better to believe.

I would not be surprised to hear that DTR affects all skills 'equally', in that it applies a % modifier increase to damage dealt, but in the case of DoTs, the increase is spread out over the course of the spell. If that is the case, then not only is truncating an issue between the 'wide' break points between +0 and +1 damage applied to each tick, but the benefit of DTR would be spread over a longer period of time, further adding to the issue of truncated damage.

I guess I have a hard time believing that truncated damage can 'carry over' to the next DoT tick, I think the damage calculations would just be more simple than that.

DTR damage adds being spread over the course of the whole DoT would also explain why it 'seems' that it takes a good deal of DTR in order to increase DoT ticks by +1 damage, as opposed to a 'normal' spell that deals everything upfront. Assuming that is potentially the case, it would be pretty significant evidence for DTR being an inferior damage booster for DoT spells. I of course have no actual proof that this is the case, but it would help line up the reality of how much DTR is necessary to increase DoT damage by +1.

[EasymodeX]

the benefit of DTR would be spread over a longer period of time, further adding to the issue of truncated damage.

This is false and completely irrelevant.

You're basically saying DoTs are bad because they deal damage over a long period of time.

I guess I have a hard time believing that truncated damage can 'carry over' to the next DoT tick, I think the damage calculations would just be more simple than that.

FF14 seems to have obnoxiously overcomplicated equations in certain ways. That aside, the concept of the DoT "remainders" carrying over is very minor and not a huge impact. It's the least of the 4 assumptions re: DoT tick truncation; there's no reason to get hung up on it.

DTR damage adds being spread over the course of the whole DoT would also explain why it 'seems' that it takes a good deal of DTR in order to increase DoT ticks by +1 damage,

The point is that this is no different than Int.

I could say that Int sucks for Summoners because it takes a lot of Int to "barely" add +1 or +2 damage to Summoner DoT ticks. Facepalm.