Overflowing stupidity

[scarebearz]

But meanwhile player 1 is gaining 50k player 2 is gaining 150k and selling it easier...

The mats themselves sell faster than the crafted 2 star items, so player 2 would in effect be paying 50k to sell his stuff slower.

In terms of selling easier, no 2 star stuff on Odin sells very fast, price has little effect on the rate these things sell, as long as they are sensibility priced.

So a 2 star 9 mat item on my server priced at 300k would sell at about the same speed as if it were priced at 200k.

[Zigkid3]

in some cases its better to sell for less if it increases your inventory turnover rate.
Say someone can gain a net profit of 20k at price point A, or or gain a net profit of 30k at price point B. Price point B is higher which will result in getting 10K more out of the sale but it'll sell less often.
Say after 24 hours, at price A you were able to gain 20k for each sale and sold 5, so 100k total. In the same amount of time of 24 hours if you sold at price B and gained 30k each you may only sell 3 and gain a total of 90k.
So in 24 hours, it was better to sell at a lower price and gain less profit per item, but you sold a lot more in the same time frame.

[Niwashi]

Lets say mats are worth and sell for 200k.

...Player 2 farms his own mats and crafted the same item and lists it at 150k.

Player 2 is in effect losing 50k when it sells, as he would have got 200k just from selling the mats.

That's only relevant if selling the raw mats would have gotten him what he wanted. If gil is the only motivation, then yes, he could have gotten more gil by selling the mats. Doing so, however, would mean he gets no crafting XP. A lot of the items that get sold on the market boards are the by-products of leveling crafting, and any gil they may or may not make is secondary. In that case, the goal isn't to maximize the amount of gil, but to maximize the speed at which they sell, so you can free up inventory space for making more items.


Overall, I think ApolloGenX got it right, with:

It was never worth those ridiculous prices.

Just because someone overpaid more for mats than a finished product is reasonably worth, doesn't mean that everyone else needs to artificially jack up the prices of the finished products in order to match.

[scarebearz]

That's only relevant if selling the raw mats would have gotten him what he wanted. If gil is the only motivation, then yes, he could have gotten more gil by selling the mats. Doing so, however, would mean he gets no crafting XP. A lot of the items that get sold on the market boards are the by-products of leveling crafting, and any gil they may or may not make is secondary. In that case, the goal isn't to maximize the amount of gil, but to maximize the speed at which they sell, so you can free up inventory space for making more items.

You obviously know little about crafting, no non-50's would even be trying to craft 2 star items. (Or have the stats to even try)

For other lower level items, yeah you are probably correct, but that's not what I was talking about.

[Niwashi]

You obviously know little about crafting, no non-50's would even be trying to craft 2 star items. (Or have the stats to even try)

For other lower level items, yeah you are probably correct, but that's not what I was talking about.

But this thread isn't discussing 2 star items, at least not specifically. It's discussing how the market works in general for crafted items. (You're the only one here to have even mentioned 2 star items, and that sounded more like an example than an indication of the scope of the discussion.)

For levels 1-49, people buying mats are presumably those who want to level their crafting, or perhaps just craft something for their own use, when they don't feel like taking the time to do their own gathering as well. They'll often be willing to pay a premium for that convienience by spending more on the materials than the finished products are worth.

At level 50 the incentive changes, as you no longer need crafting XP, but the economics aren't all that different. Mats still tend to be expensive because there's still relatively fewer people taking the time to gather them. For some players, that doesn't matter. They still want the convienience of being able to craft without gathering so they can make gear for themselves or their friends. For those trying to make a profit at it, however, they're going to have a hard time doing so if they're paying a premium for the convienience of avoiding the gathering part of crafting.

[scarebearz]

But this thread isn't discussing 2 star items, at least not specifically. It's discussing how the market works in general for crafted items. (You're the only one here to have even mentioned 2 star items, and that sounded more like an example than an indication of the scope of the discussion.)

This thread has been discussing 2 star crafts since post#10 and most of the following posts have been referring them and using them for examples.

I may have been the first to use the term "2 star", but everyone else knew those were the items being referred to.

[Niwashi]

This thread has been discussing 2 star crafts since post#10 and most of the following posts have been referring them and using them for examples.

I may have been the first to use the term "2 star", but everyone else knew those were the items being referred to.

Well, there it's definitely just an example. The topic is broader than that. Don't get so tunnel-visioned that you can't see when an issue is broader than just the little piece of it you're looking at. The fact that I'm looking at the issue from a different perspective is part of why I could see points that you were missing.

[Wulfies]

Hi,

I do not know where we got off topic here in reference to the OP's topic. We are talking about having a blind bidding system as they did in FFXI. IMHO, it doesn't solve the problem and only tries to mask it. Please see my post (its #12 in the thread)

This is what I was getting at. Why would you lower your price when you could make full value? You feel that because you farmed the mats then crafted the item yours is worth less than mine when I was lazy and bought the mats? You deserve the full 250k profit where as my lazy self only deserves 50k profit because I bought my mats.

My only want is for a more unified crafting community with stable prices and decent profit for everyone but that's impossible currently because most people are selfish d-bags that can't stand to see anyone do as well as them.

To Ricon, I ask "why not?" I do not know what your goals are, but when I put crap stuff on the market, I want the product to move and collect my gil as quick as i can. To me, as a person who farms everything, my CoGS (Cost of Goods Sold) are next to nil except for the time it took me to farm the mats. As a merchant, my goal is to sell first and sell it fast. I want to move more product and if i can do that cheaper than you and still make more profit than you, i can and I will. This is a basic business model.

Lets say mats are worth and sell for 200k.

Player 1 buys these mats and crafts their item, they list it at 250k. (The going rate)

Player 2 farms his own mats and crafted the same item and lists it at 150k.

Player 2 is in effect losing 50k when it sells, as he would have got 200k just from selling the mats.

It may be "pure profit", but it's still 50k less profit than he would have had from selling the mats and 100k less than has he undercut by small amounts.


It's up to Player 2 what he does, but he's still daft for doing it xD

From a personal PoV I don't care much about this happening, I sold enough when few others were selling them.

To Scarebearz, I ask the following. If I know my product at 150k will sell in 2 hours vs 2 days at the "going" price of 250k, why would i not sell it? To me, even if the person buying it, is just going to "flip" it, I could care less because I have made my money and have moved on. As the great quote from The Godfather: Part III says, "It's not personal, its business."

But meanwhile player 1 is gaining 50k player 2 is gaining 150k and selling it easier...

+1

The mats themselves sell faster than the crafted 2 star items, so player 2 would in effect be paying 50k to sell his stuff slower.

In terms of selling easier, no 2 star stuff on Odin sells very fast, price has little effect on the rate these things sell, as long as they are sensibility priced.

So a 2 star 9 mat item on my server priced at 300k would sell at about the same speed as if it were priced at 200k.

This is not always the case, there are markets of both mats and fully finished products that sell faster than others. It is upto the seller to find these "niche" markets and take advantage of the demand before everyone else and get out when your "niche" market becomes flooded with sellers. This is plain vanilla business strategy.

To your sentence regarding "sensibility priced," I am unsure how an item can be "sensibility priced." Price is dictated by demand. As demand rises price goes up. As a business person, you need to find these markets in demand and exploit them before everyone else.

Lets say mats are worth and sell for 200k.

Player 1 buys these mats and crafts their item, they list it at 250k. (The going rate)

Player 2 farms his own mats and crafted the same item and lists it at 150k.

Player 2 is in effect losing 50k when it sells, as he would have got 200k just from selling the mats.

That's only relevant if selling the raw mats would have gotten him what he wanted. If gil is the only motivation, then yes, he could have gotten more gil by selling the mats. Doing so, however, would mean he gets no crafting XP. A lot of the items that get sold on the market boards are the by-products of leveling crafting, and any gil they may or may not make is secondary. In that case, the goal isn't to maximize the amount of gil, but to maximize the speed at which they sell, so you can free up inventory space for making more items.


Overall, I think ApolloGenX got it right, with:

It was never worth those ridiculous prices.

Just because someone overpaid more for mats than a finished product is reasonably worth, doesn't mean that everyone else needs to artificially jack up the prices of the finished products in order to match.

Isn't the point of selling on the MB to make gil? The crafting leves give far better exp/hr than just straight grinding.

Also, from what i've seen, by-products of crafting are generally alot lower than other mats because everyone is selling it and everyone wants their stuff to sell for gil so that they move on to the next item. This is further proof that the MB is there for gil.

In regards to ApolloGenX quote, an item is worth what people are willing to pay. Also, people need to add some "cost" for the "service" of creating said product. "Ridiculous" is a subjective term

You obviously know little about crafting, no non-50's would even be trying to craft 2 star items. (Or have the stats to even try)

For other lower level items, yeah you are probably correct, but that's not what I was talking about.

But this thread isn't discussing 2 star items, at least not specifically. It's discussing how the market works in general for crafted items. (You're the only one here to have even mentioned 2 star items, and that sounded more like an example than an indication of the scope of the discussion.)

For levels 1-49, people buying mats are presumably those who want to level their crafting, or perhaps just craft something for their own use, when they don't feel like taking the time to do their own gathering as well. They'll often be willing to pay a premium for that convenience by spending more on the materials than the finished products are worth.

At level 50 the incentive changes, as you no longer need crafting XP, but the economics aren't all that different. Mats still tend to be expensive because there's still relatively fewer people taking the time to gather them. For some players, that doesn't matter. They still want the convenience of being able to craft without gathering so they can make gear for themselves or their friends. For those trying to make a profit at it, however, they're going to have a hard time doing so if they're paying a premium for the convenience of avoiding the gathering part of crafting.

You are right, for 1-49 you are usually buying mats to skill up crafts, these products will generally have an equilibrium. There will be both a steady supply and steady demand. But, at the same time there will be mats that are in low supply therefore you pay a premium, in both price and quantity (remember you cant buy from stacks).

Also, there are always going to be "profit centers" that can be exploited, it's just the matter of finding them. For example, I recently had a run where I was resupplying some +1 products pretty much every 5 mins because they were selling like hotcakes. I do not know why, but the "market" soon dried up and the product is selling at their normal rate and price. People just have to keep their eye out.



Now circling back to the OPs quote. All markets you will have this. By making the current system a "blind" all you are doing is removing transparency from the market. I am a big proponent for market transparency.

[scarebearz]

To Scarebearz, I ask the following. If I know my product at 150k will sell in 2 hours vs 2 days at the "going" price of 250k, why would i not sell it? To me, even if the person buying it, is just going to "flip" it, I could care less because I have made my money and have moved on. As the great quote from The Godfather: Part III says, "It's not personal, its business."

You are missing the point of that example:

Tomb mats do sell a lot faster than crafted items.

In the example the mats total market value was 200k, the finished item undercut to 150k.

Regardless of if the 150k finished item sells faster than the other crafter's 250k item, the undercutter is still in effect losing 50k easy profit, by not just selling the mats.

The fact he farmed all the mats himself is irrelevant, while the 150k may be "pure profit", it's still a minimum 50k loss on the gil potential and a senseless move on his part.

[scarebearz]

To your sentence regarding "sensibility priced," I am unsure how an item can be "sensibility priced." Price is dictated by demand. As demand rises price goes up.

Demand is not the only influencing factor on prices.

If an item is overpriced, it will not sell regardless of the demand.

E.g. No wind shards on the market, so someone puts them up for 100000 gil each, they will be high in demand, but nobody would pay that for them.