Thread: 2.1 Steel Cyclone, Not Enough

I understand your point, I just lower SC potency to match the 20% freebie proc from Overpower and have it stronger when performed in normal way with full Wrath stack.

Since it's like we blow strong gust to enemies, maybe applying Slow effect on each of them may help a little for mitigation?

I completely agree that just throwing extra enmity onto SC is not enough of a buff to make me use it in any situation other than one where I can do w/e for the lulz (see stuff that doesn't matter). I'd love for it to do something like apply an 8 second blind to all enemies hit by it, in addition to the extra enmity (and keep it at 200 potency and ignores the damage penalty of Def). That way, it hits hard, produces tons of aggro, and lessens the damage we take from a ton of small incoming hits. That way it's our go to button for locking down and weathering large packs of trash mobs, isn't completely worthless for damage reduction, and also isn't something we'd use on single targets. Then again, I'm not a number cruncher, and I don't know how 8 seconds of blind on x targets would stack up to the DR of IB vs. the same amount of targets. But even if it is a little less, with the damage and extra enmity thrown in, maybe it would be worthwhile, ONLY for trash packs.

Originally Posted by Sybreed

I completely agree that just throwing extra enmity onto SC is not enough of a buff to make me use it in any situation other than one where I can do w/e for the lulz (see stuff that doesn't matter). I'd love for it to do something like apply an 8 second blind to all enemies hit by it, in addition to the extra enmity (and keep it at 200 potency and ignores the damage penalty of Def). That way, it hits hard, produces tons of aggro, and lessens the damage we take from a ton of small incoming hits. That way it's our go to button for locking down and weathering large packs of trash mobs, isn't completely worthless for damage reduction, and also isn't something we'd use on single targets. Then again, I'm not a number cruncher, and I don't know how 8 seconds of blind on x targets would stack up to the DR of IB vs. the same amount of targets. But even if it is a little less, with the damage and extra enmity thrown in, maybe it would be worthwhile, ONLY for trash packs.

The thing I dislike about this is that it seems like a copy/paste from PLD (their bread and butter AoE tool, Flash, blinds for 12s). Not to mention that @ 8 seconds and having the requirement of 5 Wrath, this ability would undoubtedly be weaker than IB. I'd much rather keep with the new theme of on-demand short DR that IB is going to introduce.

If SC isn't buffed to be equal or better than IB in certain scenarios it will never be used outside of 'Hey! Look what I can do!' -Stuart

Originally Posted by Sybreed

I completely agree that just throwing extra enmity onto SC is not enough of a buff to make me use it in any situation other than one where I can do w/e for the lulz (see stuff that doesn't matter). I'd love for it to do something like apply an 8 second blind to all enemies hit by it, in addition to the extra enmity (and keep it at 200 potency and ignores the damage penalty of Def). That way, it hits hard, produces tons of aggro, and lessens the damage we take from a ton of small incoming hits. That way it's our go to button for locking down and weathering large packs of trash mobs, isn't completely worthless for damage reduction, and also isn't something we'd use on single targets.

I'll echo what Phreak said, in that an 8 second blind is in no way worth 5 wrath. 20% DR just weighs too much on the scale. PLD already have a free blind, and in a blind scenario you'll run into a couple things pretty easy: PLD AoEing with you won't stack, diminishing returns, and blind resist. There are actually a lot of things in Coil that flat out resist blind, making it trivial unless tacked on to a spammable move such as Flash or Overpower. In any situation you are dual tanking a pack, a PLD will simply have the buff up no matter what.

The idea of spreading AoE fracture was interesting from a mechanic stand point. I do like that, but it'd have to be a free skill. Again blowing 5 wrath has weight, and 20% DR is the only *REAL* option as a tank. People get all frothy at the mouth at damage and different applications, but Warrior is a tank first and foremost.

Originally Posted by Sakasa

-snip-

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. 20% DR is on Inner Beast come 2.1, not 50%. Blowing Wrath stacks isn't weighted on our healing received anymore, however it is weighted against our new 20% DR. As I explained earlier in the thread, SC will be worthless in comparison to this without an added DR effect. Even a heal drain would be sub-optimal as over heals, and timing come into play that would make the 20% DR better suited. It is the same argument of current IB with proposed 2.1 20% DR.

Phreak and I already hashed out 20% DR with 6 second CD, with wrath regen in place (some form of overpower wrath gen), would put it on par with 2.1 inner beast change (which isn't OP) and wouldn't side line SC for IB, like 2.1 proposed changes would. There are of course a few other good ideas being floated about to make SC usable on a regular basis, which is what we are truly after.

Originally Posted by Sakasa

stuff about 50% DR

Damage reductions are multiplicative not additive so 50% is incorrect and somewhat makes stacking them inefficient (you don't see PLDs stacking all their CDs together, they stagger them to maintain a constant high eHP that's manageable to heal without grossly over doing it for the first 10 seconds then dropping like a rock afterwards. As far as 'stacking' the buffs from Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast together you would have to somehow start the fight magically with 5 stacks of Wrath AND have Infuriate off CD. To even do this you would've had to carry over stacks from the last pull and pull that new pack within 30 seconds on top of the fact since you were holding your Wrath to begin with you wouldn't have been maintaining your DR on the group prior meaning you're taking more damage on that pull but less on the next, it's all a wash.

The buffs would also only last 6 and 8 seconds respectively, that's hardly OP considering it would be a full minute before you could pull that stunt again and if your AoE pulls are lasting up to a minute something else is going horribly wrong.

Your example is one of poor play not over powered design.

Originally Posted by civilpaw

Not sure if this was mentioned, but maybe just make Steel Cyclone not use all 5 wrath. Maybe 2 wrath, so that you can pop it, do 1 combo and be back to full for a use of Inner Beast.

Tack on a short CD to it... 15 seconds or something, iunno, and it prevents it from being abused for epic aoe DPS.

edit: could also increase its damage to make it a worthwhile button to hit single target, but if it hits multiple targets, its damage is split among them. Would have to add a threat multiplier to compensate for the loss of damage in AoE situations, but this could be a means of balancing it without a cooldown attached.

The problem with any use of Wrath, is it is still weighted against IB. Unless you truly have a ridiculous threat lead, and can afford ST rotation for Wrath gain to IB, then it is all moot in the end. Having 5 Wrath would mean IB is still the clear answer for 20% DR on meaningful content (stuff that hits hard, aka raiding). We floated an idea of proc from Overpower to make a free SC. It seemed the most feasible for keeping it similar to how it is now, and just adding some enmity bonus on it. I'd rather see it used in place of IB, as a go to AoE rotation for DR % and threat.

Not saying your idea is bad, it is still better then what they currently have planned, but to make SC apart of our normal rotation it just needs some oomf to it.