Thread: 2.1 Steel Cyclone, Not Enough

Originally Posted by ProxyTooMuch

Just make it restore 150 TP on use. Or something. Damage reduction is on everything already.

lol what? Nice blanket statement. We have DR on >2< whole abilities. Yeah...I guess that's pretty much everything.

Originally Posted by ProxyTooMuch

Just make it restore 150 TP on use.

This honestly sounds like the best idea to me, though, instead of having it provide a flat amount of TP per use, have it provide 50 TP per target hit. Overpower is almost outrageously expensive; allowing Steel Cyclone to offset some of that would be nice, especially given how Flash is, for nearly all intents and purposes, free. It would mean that Steel Cyclone would serve a different purpose (resource regeneration) than Inner Beast (mitigation) while still being entirely useful and appropriate.

The other option would be to have a 3-4 second stun attached to it. There's precedent for an AoE to have a stun in WHM Holy, which is a hard hitting spammable AoE that has a 4 sec stun on it. It would provide an explicit survivability benefit for AoE scenarios (not getting hit by anything for 3-4 seconds) without copying Inner Beast and would also give WARs an emergency stun for those situations in which Brutal Swing is on CD.

Having SC clone Inner Beast's DR buff would just turn it Steel Cyclone into the attack you use instead of Inner Beast any time you've got more than 2 targets around. Having it provide a heal *on top* of what IB provides would have it replace Inner Beast for much the same reason that IB renders Steel Cyclone redundant. If you really wanted to get some kind of damage reduction from it, don't have it be a static value; have it provide stacks of a DR buff (say, 5-7.5%) for each target that it hits that fades after 6 seconds (limited at 5 stacks) so that it becomes explicitly better than IB when there are a large number of enemies but worse than IB in situations when there aren't that many (which also providing more DR when you really need it since, if you're fighting 5+ targets, you *really* need the DR).

Originally Posted by Kitru

have it provide stacks of a DR buff (say, 5-7.5%) for each target that it hits that fades after 6 seconds (limited at 5 stacks) so that it becomes explicitly better than IB when there are a large number of enemies but worse than IB in situations when there aren't that many (which also providing more DR when you really need it since, if you're fighting 5+ targets, you *really* need the DR).

That's the gist of what I originally had in my first post, the DR on SC increased per mob hit with a cap to keep it from getting out of control.

This is an easy problem to solve I think. They need to make it so that overpower has a 10% chance to allow steel cyclone to cost 0 wrath. Then we can use it the way it is meant to be used. On groups where we are burning down out TP. In exchange do not change the TP charge of overpower.

Actually, I like the idea of Cyclone restoring TP a lot.

Originally Posted by Leiron

Actually, I like the idea of Cyclone restoring TP a lot.

I don't think this is a bad idea, and certainly it is certainly better then their current proposed change of just enmity gain. However, I think people still keep mixing in "convenience" with "necessity". Overpower currently generates enough threat to hold over DD, and we are receiving a boost to this come 2.1, which will mean even less overpower spam and more TP management. We all know Warrior can crutch on healers, even now, but I'd take the tank that actually mitigates incoming damage and gives the party some breathing room any day. It would be interesting if they mixed in the TP gain with a free proc off overpower, giving you reason to use it. I just don't see 5 Wrath being worth blowing on anything else besides 20% DR.

My personal take on SC vs IB, both situational, one clearly meant for preparing for a large amount of incoming damage to you (IB) and the other clearly meant for a large amount of outgoing damage (SC).

Provided SC is more enmity generation than overpower, this makes sense.

Changes I would like to see for SC in next post (mobile, can't edit to avoid cap)

Originally Posted by Schmitty

My personal take on SC vs IB, both situational, one clearly meant for preparing for a large amount of incoming damage to you (IB) and the other clearly meant for a large amount of outgoing damage (SC).

Provided SC is more enmity generation than overpower, this makes sense.

Not really. The point of a tank is to be able to minimize the amount of damage that the entire group takes by attracting attention to itself and reducing that damage to the smallest amount possible (or, in the case of WAR's +healing, reduce the amount of healing required to the smallest amount possible). You need the DR a *lot* more than you need a tiny increase in AoE damage (and it *is* tiny; you're talking about a whole 147 extra AoE potency every minute or so; remember: Overpower doesn't generate Wrath so you're either getting Overpower spam *or* ST comboing + Steel Cyclone and Overpower spam is *way* more potency per GCD), especially since tank damage is a joke compared to what a DPS can put out (they get higher potency AoEs *and* better resource management *and* actually have DPS stats) which is why, even in AoE scenarios, you're still going to see WARs using Inner Beast instead of Steel Cyclone.

Hell, even if you want damage/enmity, you're better off just using Unchained to buff your Overpower than blowing 5 stacks on Steel Cyclone (Steel Cyclone is an extra 147 effective potency; Unchained increases the effective potency of every Overpower you use by 40 for 20 seconds; over 20 seconds, Unchained is going to provide twice as much as Steel Cyclone does).

Steel Cyclone either needs to do *something* besides increase damage/enmity because damage isn't what tanks are there for and enmity is a simple enough part of the game that is only getting made easier since they're increasing Defiance's enmity buff or have a drastically reduced opportunity cost (so that it's effectively "cheaper" than the other Wrath consumers). Without some substantial benefit as useful as what Unchained and Inner Beast provide or an increase in use rate (via cost reduction or procs to allow Wrath stacks to be recovered more quickly) to offset the less useful benefit it provides right now, Steel Cyclone is going to stay just as useless as it is now. Unchained is going to be what you use for improved damage and enmity generation (both ST and AoE since it buffs *all* damage) and Inner Beast is what you're going to use to provide increased survivability.

An interesting thought that occurs to me would be a 50% chance for it to not consume your Wrath stacks (or generate 5 Wrath stacks upon use or not allow the next SC to be used without the Infuriated condition) so that it becomes an AoE that you spam until you can't use it any more. The RNG nature of it would keep the ability interesting and reasonably balanced since you're getting, on average, 2 Steel Cyclones for the cost of 5 Wrath stacks, which makes it, on average, balanced with Unchained as far as improved AoE enmity generation is concerned while having the advantage of being TP free. The opportunity cost could also be reduced since, depending upon the implementation, it could allow you to immediately be able to use one of your other Wrath consuming abilities instead of another Steel Cyclone.

Another idea would be for Steel Cyclone to provide you with a stacking buff per target hit that increases the number of Wrath stacks your next Wrath generating ability generates so that you get something akin to a combo (with 3 targets, you'd be able to do Steel>Storm's Path combo; with 4+ targets, you'd be able to do Steel>Heavy Swing>Maim). It would generate less enmity per GCD than simple Overpower spam (assuming 3x enmity mod on both Overpower and Cyclone, you'd get 1080 enmity potency per GCD with Overpower spam on 3 targets; Steel>SP would be 746 on 3; on 5 targets, Overpower spam would give you 1800 enmity; Steel>HS>Maim would be 1738 enmity potency per GCD) but do more damage (on 3, Overpower spam is 360 potency per GCD, Steel>SP is 416.4; on 5, Overpower spam is 600 per GCD, Steel>HS>Maim is 668) while being a *lot* more cost effective (130 per GCD cost for Overpower spam; Steel>SP is only 47.5; Steel>HS>Maim is 43.33). Assuming you open with Infuriate (else it takes you 20 seconds to build up to it), you'd get similar AoE capability damage and enmity without destroying your TP; plus, since you're only 3 GCDs away from full Wrath again, the opportunity cost is drastically reduced because you're, at most, only 7.5 seconds from your next Inner Beast (but only if you use it in a situation where an AoE is actually appropriate).

A lot of changes so far proposed seem workable but possibly too strong.

I would like to see SC:

A) give a debuff to enemies hit by it to go with its enmity generation.

B) have a chance to generate stacks of Wrath based on a low %, even one stack would ease the transition to 5, giving more incentive for its use.