Paladin BiS Accessory Reddit Discussion

[TaneshimaPopura]

I'm passing on all Allagan Tank Accessories on Turn 1-4. I need to start doing it as healer though now =3. I see no reason to use them... Hope Twinny drops Allagan Axe this week so I can try MT'ing with Warrior next week.

[Jahaudant]

Since this tread is explicitly referencing PLD the argument that crafted accessories are better than Allagan/Hero for tanking is ridiculous. Stop it.

[Maelwys]

Since this tread is explicitly referencing PLD the argument that crafted accessories are better than Allagan/Hero for tanking is ridiculous. Stop it.

Technically it's not THAT ridiculous...

There are quite a few valid arguments for it. But the main reason really comes down to Block + Parry weightings and whether you prefer to help your healer lower the amount of raw healing they have to throw at you over time (More STR/DEX), or give them a greater reaction time buffer in which to heal you (More VIT).

I posted an example build in another thread a few weeks back. Reposting below.

Neck: Melded Gryphonskin
Ear: Melded Rosegold Earcuffs
Wrist: Melded Gryphonskin
Ring1: Melded Gryphonskin
Ring2: Melded Gryphonskin

Weapon: Allagan Blade
Offhand: Allagan Shield
Head: Allagan
Body: Valor
Hands: Valor
Waist: Allagan
Legs: Valor
Feet: Allagan

Grand Total: (with above gear on a 'Sea Wolf', no food)
406 Str, 234 Dex, 493 Vit, 585 Parry, 473 Acc, 383 Crit, 260 Det, 359 SS
HP: 6447.285 (in Party, no food)

Compared to the Post-T5 +Vit/+Parry BIS builds, you'd basically sacrifice 9 Parry, 25 Vit and 2 Acc for 45 Dex, 45 Str, 31 Crit, 30 Det and 7 SS.

In exchange for 5.3% HP, that pushes you up 1-2 Block/Parry Strength Tiers (+1%-2% strength, or about ~0.25-0.5% extra damage mitigation from parry over time, and the same from block) and very roughly around +0.5%-0.6% Block/Parry chance.

So realistically, you'd be swapping ~5% Maximum Health buffer for around a ~1% increase in damage mitigation versus non magic attacks. It also makes Bulwark a little bit stronger and more reliable.

By itself trading 5% HP for 1% mitigation may seem like a bad deal, but if your healer is skilled enough that they never let you drop lower than 5% HP then that extra 5% is going to be "wasted" - it doesn't actually reduce the damage you take. Assuming that your Healer reaction time is good and you're in no danger of being one-shot, the ONLY benefit additional HP gives you is whenever you're Stoneskinned or SCH-buffed and specifically using the extra HP buffer tactically in order to dodge the "added effect" of certain "added effect" attacks.

The blocking/parry increase isn't the only thing affected by accessory swapping however. Swapping in those stats adds somewhere in the region of +15-20% DPS - which also affects enmity generation. This adds a tiny tiny bit to your Self-healing via Bloodbath, and Mercy Stroke if you can ever land it exactly on time... but that's not why it's worth doing. Having higher DPS and enmity generation actually boosts survivability substantially - First you have the old well-proven "Killing things faster means they hit you less" argument. Second; whenever a PLD has a big enmity lead they have the option to spend LESS time Flashing and Cycling their RoH combo and MORE time Stunning, Shield Swiping and Stoneskinning.

Finally, the Dex boost also affects Shield Lob damage. PLD have very low native Dex, so +45 is actually a pretty big deal for Shield Lob. It makes for a much more solid hate lock when pulling at range. [see here].

I'm certainly not saying that Gryphonskins are "always BIS". But there are definitely valid arguments for using them if you're at the point where extra HP would "go to waste".

[TaneshimaPopura]

Being able to climb the Threat meters and then spam casting Stoneskin on yourself already flat out beats your 25 Vitality. Not to mention Death Sentence, Fireball even up to initial hit of the Liquid Hell all can be block/parried. There is never a situation where you'd need that extra 25 Vitality in Twintania, cause case 1 you should be topped off before every Death Sentence, there should be some sort of damage mitigation/reduction present, don't under estimate Bloodbath self heal via your damage it is capable of healing almost 1-1.2k during it's duration and is unaffected by Infirmity.

And as many have stated. As of current difficulty Gryphonskin is BiS when more hard hitting encounter is released that might change. But as of now even if it did happen unless the attack we're talking about is 500 DMG higher than what Twintania does per hit there is no reason putting on Allagan Accessories over perfect Meld Gryphonskins.

[Paikis]

Since this tread is explicitly referencing PLD the argument that crafted accessories are better than Allagan/Hero for tanking is ridiculous. Stop it.

The fact that the discussion is this heated should tell you that they are pretty close. As explained above though, Gryphonskin is pretty much the only choice you should be making at the moment.

[Jahaudant]

The fact that the discussion is this heated should tell you that they are pretty close. As explained above though, Gryphonskin is pretty much the only choice you should be making at the moment.

The conversation is heated, so the results must be close!

No.

I'll keep it simple.

1% block mitigation on a 16% block rate = 0.16% Effective HP (vs physical only)
1% parry mitigation on a 20% parry rate = 0.20% Effective HP (vs physical only)
0.5% chance of mitigating 27% damage from blocking = 0.135% Effective HP (vs physical only)
0.5% chance of mitigating 15% damage from parry = 0.075% Effective HP (vs physical only)

Total EHP from STR/DEX = 0.57%

6447 * 0.0057 = 36.7 EHP increase (vs physical only)

(25 VIT * 1.03 party bonus) * 14.5 = 373 Effective HP

25 VIT is 337 points of EHP more effective (or a whopping 10.16 times better) than the mitigation gained from STR and DEX increases.

TLDR;
The mitigation argument is utterly ridiculous, so once again, stop it.

I won't argue against the DPS/threat benefits. But I will say that by choosing crafted accessories over Allagan/Hero Fending you are gearing to deal damage, not absorb it. And while I disagree that more threat is ever required, and that DPS should not be your primary focus, these are play style choices that I leave up to my follow PLDs to decide on.

I just want to make the numbers clear, and they aren't as attractive as you seem to have thought.

[Grembo]

I just want to make the numbers clear, and they aren't as attractive as you seem to have thought.

The maths has been shown to them over and over again, they really feel like that 0.12% increase to the groups DPS is a big deal though ya know?

Might as well let them keep up their delusions, whatever helps them sleep at night.

[Maelwys]

I won't argue against the DPS/threat benefits. While I disagree that more threat is ever required, and that DPS should not be your primary focus, these are play style choices that I leave up to my follow PLDs to decide on. I just want to make the numbers clear, and they aren't as attractive as you seem to have thought.

Your block and parry rates are off.

585 Parry and 234 Dex, with a +1 Relic or Allagan Shield is substantially higher than a "16% block and 20% parry rate" - due to the DODGE -> BLOCK -> PARRY ordering, Block and Parry chances are close to identical, with a slight edge to Block. And those stats give a much higher Parry and Block chance.

You go from:

~361 STR and 189 Dex to ~406 and ~234 Dex, whilst losing a tiny amount of raw parry and acc. That crosses not one, but TWO Str tiers.

That's rising from 23% parry and 25% block strength to 25% parry and 27% block strength, whilst raising both parry block and parry rate by around 1%. If we take the reduced raw parry from gear into account and err on the side of caution, let's call this a 0.6% boost in rate... (realistically, I suspect that it'll probably be closer to 0.8%, but whatever).

-----------

If you cross two STR tiers (as above), it'd be:

~23% block rate at 25% strength = 5.75% damage mitigated
~23% parry rate at 23% strength = 5.29% damage mitigated
Total = 11.04% damage mitigated over time from Block/Parry.

~23.6% block rate at 27% strength = 6.372% damage mitigated
~23.6% parry rate at 25% strength = 5.9% damage mitigated
Total = 12.272% damage mitigated over time from Block/Parry.

= An extra 1.232 percent of damage mitigated.

-----------

If you cross only one STR tier, it'd be:

~23% block rate at 25% strength = 5.75% damage mitigated
~23% parry rate at 23% strength = 5.29% damage mitigated
Total = 11.04% damage mitigated over time from Block/Parry.

~23.6% block rate at 26% strength = 6.136% damage mitigated
~23.6% parry rate at 24% strength = 5.664% damage mitigated
Total = 11.8% damage mitigated over time from Block/Parry.

= An extra 0.76 percent of damage mitigated.

-----------

So you can see that we're left with either a little over or a little under a baseline figure of ~1% additional mitigation versus non-magic damage. (Not counting any benefits to Bulwark).
That is a direct trade for ~5% HP, which is a damage "buffer" and NOT damage "reduction".

The difference between "buffer" and "reduction" is important, because whilst both increase your survivability, the effectiveness of the first vanishes whenever you start relying on heals to survive (as long as you can't be one-shot). What's better: Getting hit for 1000 damage and being Healed for 1000, or getting hit for 990 damage and being Healed for 1000? Reduction mitigation simply scales much better than Max HP as long as you aren't being one-shot, that's why PLDs are (currently, until patch 2.1!) better mitigation tanks than WARs.

[Jahaudant]

My apologies.

Using those numbers it's 49 EHP vs 373 EHP making VIT 7.6 times better.

You realise that your argument is based on your healer having to cure for exactly 49 HP less for every 6447 damage you take? It's mind blowing. You cannot argue that melded Gryph accessories are better for survivability than Hero/Allagan, you simply cannot. It's not true. It will never be true. You are delusional if you think it's true. Stop telling people it's true. Good lord.

[Maelwys]

You realise that your argument is based on your healer having to cure for exactly 49 HP less for every 6447 damage you take? It's mind blowing. You cannot argue that melded Gryph accessories are better for survivability than Hero/Allagan, you simply cannot. It's not true. It will never be true. You are delusional if you think it's true. Stop telling people it's true. Good lord.

My argument is that your healer having to heal you 1% less often is better than you having an extra 5% HP buffer which never actually gets used.

eHP is IRRELEVANT to this.

(In the situations we are talking about above, the endgame-i90'ed PLDs already have so much HP that the extra boost from 25 VIT ends up doing nothing. In THOSE cases, 1% reduction beats +5% HP)