Thread: 2.0 WAR tanking in end game content. Is it worth it?

Originally Posted by Zoomie

I also have to disagree with your prediction. While Warrior will be in a MUCH better place than they are currently in 2.0, the new 2.1 warrior won't replace paladin across the board.

No, they won't.

Their mitigation will only be slightly behind PLD. They have a way better version of Rampart (Inner Beast), a better version of Sentinel (Vengeance) and (we'll have to wait and see) an ability on par with Block (Storm's Path) this on top of their increased Healing Received and HP buffer make them the much better Tank.

If it weren't for the fact that BRDs are getting nerfed, I wouldn't recommend taking a PLD in 2.1 if these changes go through.

Originally Posted by Paikis

Rampart vs Inner Beast:
Both 20%. Rampart is up for longer, Inner Beast is usable more often. If you time it correctly, Inner Beast should be usable for most large spikes. As long as you time it correctly and you both have something to hit and actually hit it. We will have to test once it is released, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works like most other buffs currently, if the mob has a stoneskin or is invulnerable and you don't do any damage, you likely wont get the damage reduction. Meanwhile Rampart is just a button you click and you get your buff, and it doesn't really matter if you time it slightly wrong because it lasts for 20 seconds.

Under the assumption of continuous, non-distinct damage:

1. Rampart adds approx 4.4% mitigation.
2. Inner Beast adds approx. 6.7% mitigation.

So Inner Beast beats Rampart by a big margin outside of psychological and mechanical considerations.

The psychological aspect simply refers to a persons compulsion to save CDs until almost absolute necessity, at the potential loss of average mitigation

The mechanical aspect refers to abilities, such as Mountain Buster and Death Sentence that give time different damage weights. This gives abilities with shorter durations/CDs a massive advantage as if 60% of the total damage only occurs in isolated times of 3-6s, then increasing mitigation outside of those intervals is inefficient and the average mitigation of the ability drops pretty drastically. Inner Beast absolutely destroys Rampart in this regard as you are free to use Inner Beast almost off CD and if absolutely necessary you are capable of falling on Infuriate for an instant Inner Beast.

Originally Posted by Paikis

Sentinel vs Vengeance:
40% for 10 seconds every 3 minutes versus 30% for 15 seconds every 2 minutes. Vengeance is going to be less reduction, for longer, more often. Neither of these abilities is going to be up for all the spikes, or even half of them. Again, depending on how you use them, the advantage could go either way. Sentinel will reduce the larger hits by 33% more than Vengeance, but Vengeance will be able to be used more often. But Inner Beast will be available for pretty much all large hits. I honestly don't see Vengeance being used for a single large spike, as IB is already available for that. instead I see Vengeance being used to fill the gap between 2 Inner Beasts to reduce something else, either extra damage incoming from mobs that will be dead by the end of the duration or for example on the Dreadnaughts where you need prolonged good mitigation rather than large amounts of mitigation for one hit. Neither of these abilities are on short enough cooldowns that you're going to use them as they come up,and they are both very good effects. They are bordering close on the Too Awesome to Use threshold.

Under the assumption of continuous, non-distinct damage:

1. Sentinel adds approx 2.2% mitigation.
2. Vengeance adds approx. 3.8% mitigation.

Same scenario as Rampart vs. Inner Beast. Better overall mitigation without considering psychological and mechanical issues and when you take them into consideration, Vengeance is much better than Sentinel.

Originally Posted by Paikis

I do like the fact that you completely ignored the Hallowed vs Holmgang comparison. Probably because Hallowed is just straight up better than Holmgang in every way except recast. Funny how things that don't help an argument have a convenient habit of being ignored.

I didn't mention it because Holmgang's worth is difficult to quantify. There are 2 scenarios to compare against with those 2 abilities:

1. You've just taken a large proportional hit and without immediate heals, you stand a chance of dying. (Following a Mountain Buster/Death Sentence).
2. You're taking massive continuous damage. (Caduceus /ADS)

In scenario 1. Holmgang is better. More likely to happen multiple times in a single encounters which makes the shorter cooldown more beneficial, also the reducing damage doesn't serve too much purpose as the damage outside the bounds of the ability is relatively small and fairly easy to heal.

In scenario 2. Hallowed is better. This is harder to quantify, but I would personally give it to Hallowed. This situation will usually not occur multiple times in an encounter and mostly happens towards the end , meaning CD has little worth. So the benefit here comes down to duration and damage mitigated as it provides a buffer for DPS to do whatever needs to be done (Kill Caduceus, Tank Swap ADS).

Originally Posted by Paikis

Comparing Block to Storm's Path is silly. Storm's Path should be compared to Rage of Halone's STR debuff, but we can't really compare it until we have numbers. I expect it to be 2-3% and not in my wildest fever dreams could I see it ever being higher than 5% without being on such a short timer that you have to use nothing but this combo to keep it up.

You cannot compare Storm's Path to either as it has the potential to be better than both simply because not all damage relies on STR and not all damage can be blocked. We cannot really discuss whether or not it is better because we have no idea how Storm's Path damage reduction is going to work as of yet.

Originally Posted by Paikis

Please read the above quotes and then decide which of them you want to go with.

Either inner Beast is better because you can reduce the large spikes more, or Vengeance is better because it has a higher average mitigation. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

You put a lot of words into your post, and I even agree with some of it, but you basically just said:

All the information as to why Inner Beast/Vengeance are much better than both Rampart/Sentinel is there and explained. If you don't understand, try and read it again or just move on.