Does it make sense to have mobs die so quickly?

[TheVedis]

Yeah, I know there are a lot of dumbasses out there, but we need to try not to immediately call out people on stuff when they never actually said anything factually incorrect in the first place.

We should hold the level of discourse here to a higher standard, otherwise it's no better than the crap you see on the WoW boards.

im not calling anyone out
im just saying, its better to defeat the misconceptions rather then let people think otherwise

i was just stating that people may be misinterpereting it(which a ton of people are) and i stated the facts on how it really works


but back on topic


mobs dont need to scale to party size
partys need to find stuff that scales to THEM. go fight higher monsters if you think its too easy

[Peregrine]

The system is designed so that optimally, there are 4 members in a party. That is in-line with their statements that they want the norm to be 4, and the megaboss fights to be 8. In fact, adding any more members above 4 on the field really does kill your sp per hour. It's not a marginal decrease, it's a 15-25% decrease in SP per hour.

This is unfortunate, because 4 meleers at ants that can heal themselves is much better SP per hour than 4 meleers and a healer.

It's not a marginal sp reduction. 30 sp difference per mob is a big difference in sp per hour when the mobs are dropping a base of 175.

[Rutelor]

Once again, though: The original issue, in my starting post, had to do with battle time and challenge, not a system of reward. Of course, the two collide, but I was just advocating for more expansive, intricate battles. I am aware of the complications of balancing solo-vs-group reward, and that's a big issue that I hope the development team is aware of, and dealing with resolutely.

I just wanted to open a thread on something that, usually, is mentioned only tangentially. In contrast with the issue I brought up, I have read and heard plenty of concern about how to balance reward in the game.

[Physic]

Ok in all honesty, the dlevel scaling handles groups pretty well, mobs that are higher level have a base damage increase and reduction, just them being higher level means they will do more damage and take less, making them better for parties, up to a point, that point is where they can murder a tank easily. The problem is in fact, that we are limited to things 10 levels higher. Before the SP nerf people got all kinds of exp on different monsters, if we had 15 people at level 33 we killed piestes, if we had 6, we killed efts, if i was duoing/trioing we killed monkeys.

I think dpoet implied that anything that would take longer to kill, would kill you, totally untrue. groups can usually handle things up to 24 levels higher, depending on mob type. This is when roles really start to come into play. This is when you really see the advanatges of a person who builds thier charachter to tank, and a healer who does 2x as much per cure, and has a real mp pool. Thats when defense matters and the fact that you do 10-20% more damage than another class might matter. While the dlevel irrelevant skills grow in power, its not so much that they ruin everything (until you start fighting special species, or things like 30 levels higher) the fact is most of the dlevel skills are dots, and totally useless on stuff 10 levels lower, they were meant to be used on things 10-20 levels higher.

they just need to curve the sp gains properly so you dont completely destroy soloing.

two paths is an interesting possiblity, but not the only way, and they should remove sp cap regardless, or at least extend it to 20 levels

[TheVedis]

Once again, though: The original issue, in my starting post, had to do with battle time and challenge, not a system of reward. Of course, the two collide, but I was just advocating for more expansive, intricate battles. I am aware of the complications of balancing solo-vs-group reward, and that's a big issue that I hope the development team is aware of, and dealing with resolutely.

I just wanted to open a thread on something that, usually, is mentioned only tangentially. In contrast with the issue I brought up, I have read and heard plenty of concern about how to balance reward in the game.

there will be harder battles in the futre
thats a given, and i dont think you have to worry about it

[Peregrine]

two paths is an interesting possiblity, but not the only way, and they should remove sp cap regardless, or at least extend it to 20 levels

If you extend it to 20 levels then you greatly exacerbate the differences between sp per hour of certain setups, unlocking the inherent imbalance in the game that's looking for any excuse to express itself fully.

SP per hour of gld mrd lnc lnc pug con: 22k
SP per hour of arc arc arc thm con thm: 45k

Thus, archers cons and thms never party with glds mrds lnc and pugs, and choose to team up for that 45k an hour.

Leaving the original 22k an hour group impossible to build.
Now you have gld mrd pug pug lnc lnc. SP per hour: 12,500.

Great. The end result, is instead of everyone getting 22k an hour, now a subset of people get 45k an hour and a subset of people get 12.5k an hour.

[Rentahamster]

In fact, adding any more members above 4 on the field really does kill your sp per hour. It's not a marginal decrease, it's a 15-25% decrease in SP per hour.

That's mainly because of 2 factors:

1. Most of the time, in a 4+ member party, you kill stuff faster than it can respawn.

and

2. All of the time, you are not rewarded with more SP for fighting mobs more than 10 ranks higher than you

Problems that I elaborate upon and propose fixes for in my "fix SP" thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-How-to-Fix-it

This is unfortunate, because 4 meleers at ants that can heal themselves is much better SP per hour than 4 meleers and a healer.

That's because ants don't have any AOE moves, so the meleers don't have to be concerned at all with AoE healing. (but even if you do you can just use archers and the point is moot, but that's an argument for a completely different thread)

It's not a marginal sp reduction. 30 sp difference per mob is a big difference in sp per hour when the mobs are dropping a base of 175.

I didn't say it was "marginal". I said it was less in reality than the numbers that Vedis gave in his example.

Besides, you probably shouldn't be grinding on stuff that only gives you 175 SP per kill. Optimal raptors give 450 SP per kill in a duo and 383 SP in a party of 4.

[Peregrine]

NOTHING gives you 383 sp in a party of 4 at rank 27 save for an easily-exhaustable quest mob set. You underestimate the inherent differences in sp that each type of mobs give at a given dlvl cap. The 35-39 ranges of mobs is a deadzone of sp per hour, because there are no options but low-sp yielding enemies. There are no raptors, efts, beastmen, eyes, peistes, fireflies, or the like. There are at best dodos, which are about the middle of the pack in terms of sp.

Ants give about 250 a kill, and are about your best bet. Ands are sub-par SP targets by design, but they have the most density by far.

Not every R35 mob gives the same amount of SP to a R27 player. In fact, the differences are huge.

[Kilta_Firelotus]

I do not see an issue. People in ffxi made the community cookie cut jobs, job choices, weapon choices to kill mobs the fastest. In ffxi sometimes they killed mobs to fast for me to do much of anything. Its not the difficault imo its the players wanting to be uber effecint (sp)

[Physic]

NOTHING gives you 383 sp in a party of 4 at rank 27 save for an easily-exhaustable quest mob set. You underestimate the inherent differences in sp that each type of mobs give at a given dlvl cap. The 35-39 ranges of mobs is a deadzone of sp per hour, because there are no options but low-sp yielding enemies. There are no raptors, efts, beastmen, eyes, peistes, fireflies, or the like. There are at best dodos, which are about the middle of the pack in terms of sp.




Ants give about 250 a kill, and are about your best bet. Ands are sub-par SP targets by design, but they have the most density by far.

Not every R35 mob gives the same amount of SP to a R27 player. In fact, the differences are huge.

this is a big problem they dont have enough different sp rates per species, that actually represent thier difficulty, but i havent tested all the choices, i did notice though at high levels, a lot of monsters that have very different difficulties give around the same sp.