Can't make a full premade for Crystal Tower...

[Asakura93]

Yeah this sucks. Why is SE discouraging people being social SO VERY MUCH? ; ;

This feels like 1.0 all over again, SE is listening to nothing people say or want. It makes me really, really sad because I love Final Fantasy...and though this time it would be different but it seems like the devs already have a vision set for this game and could care less what their player base wants.

They are listening. People want content NOW (blabla no "endgame" content, whatever, content is still content and you can't prove me wrong on that) instead of later. So SE had to make a choice: Wait another month (or even longer!) to implement everything causing people to complain a lot more for WAITING, or release stuff sooner (like people have been asking for, for weeks already) and let people complain about stuff not being implemented.

Either way: People will complain.

SOMEONE will ALWAYS complain about something, that's a given fact.

You can't please every single person when developing and updating a MMO. Heck, some (quite a lot of) people aren't pleased with WoW, saying everytime when a new Expansion releases that it "will ruin the game" etc.

(EDIT because of the 1000 cap)

[supermegazeke]

Your not looking for 16 other players, your looking for 2 other parties of 8.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

I'll just say this: at least, Raid Finder was optional in WoW. It wasn't made at the expense of normal/heroic raiding.

Meanwhile, flexible raiding is now a reality, allowing you to play with anything from 10 to 25 players (12, 17, 21… your choice, no PU's to complement, the game scales to your group and its equipment level).

But hey, "it's FF, thus it's great", right? Mere-exposure effect = loss of objectivity. Spin it however you want, white knights, you're neither helping this game nor its community. Nor yourself, for that matter. Here you're just denying the fundamentals of human nature and MMORPG's altogether. Way to go. I'm not saying the uproar is OK when it becomes rude, I'm not saying the game will die because of this (there'll always be the die-hard-eat-all FF fans to sustain it somehow regardless of any other market competition and conventionally accepted features in MMO). I'm just saying there's no way not to see this temporary lack as a huge letdown, that could heavily impair the future of this player base—especially on Christmas eve. Because people will simply look away.

Note: eventually, CT will be available for pre-made 24-men groups. Eventually. But it's arguably one of the worst decision ever in MMORPG to roll out raid content without allowing actual raiding groups to play it together. There's no way to justify such a lack. You know, MMO's being social games above all else… 'Social' implying that friends are more desirable than strangers, at least as far as humans are concerned… Also considering that the Rube Goldberg machine that the Duty Finder is in this game—as are a lot of other things for that matter—seems to be complicating the life of developers as much as that of the players.

[Yshnal]

I'm amazed about people complaining (or saying that X type of gamer doesn't deserve to be here) about endgame content being introduced for everyone, no matter their playstyle. If CT is super easy for some of us and is intended to be done partially with the DF so what? It's not as if BC isn't going to get any more updates, or as if we don't get new 4-man content, or solo quests, etc. They'll probably update CT further down the road to let us do it with a full 24-man premade, but it wasn't their priority for this raid at its launch, obviously, as they said from the start that it was going to be balanced around the DF (unlike Coil).

Really, have you thought that maybe the hardcore raiding crowd is not their main target for this specific content? How is having content being released for everyone, even filthy casuals (sarcasm) or people without a large FC, a bad thing? Can't you simply wait a bit for until it's updated to allow 24-man premades to faceroll it?

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

I'm amazed about people complaining (or saying that X type of gamer doesn't deserve to be here) about endgame content being introduced for everyone, no matter their playstyle. If CT is super easy for some of us and is intended to be done partially with the DF so what? It's not as if BC isn't going to get any more updates, or as if we don't get new 4-man content, or solo quests, etc. They'll probably update CT further down the road to let us do it with a full 24-man premade, but it wasn't their priority for this raid at its launch, obviously, as they said from the start that it was going to be balanced around the DF (unlike Coil).

Really, have you thought that maybe the hardcore raiding crowd is not their main target for this specific content? How is having content being released for everyone, even filthy casuals (sarcasm) or people without a large FC, a bad thing? Can't you simply wait a bit for until it's updated to allow 24-man premades to faceroll it?

The problem is that, regardless of how much of a minority they are, giving raiders only 4 bosses to grind over for 6-7 months is just very, very little for a 2013 MMORPG. That's just fact. As I said in another thread, why not adapt to the situation (CT postponed, lack of endgame content) and make CT iLv90 so that it's actually relevant to everyone?

[Trunks]

I'm amazed about people complaining [...][edited because lol character limit]

Some people would really like content of the caliber of Coil with the 16- or 24-player dynamic. There is a bigger market for that sort of content than most people realize, and at the moment there are no good options for same. A lot of people were looking forward to this game's first 24-man raid as a watermark for how the game's future raid content will look. That is what all the dismay is about: this game is going to be focused only on 8-man content for the foreseeable future and there's no indication that will ever change. And so the diaspora moves on... except there's nowhere else to go.

It was perhaps misplaced to think that this would ever be a game for hardcore raiders, but a lot of us were hoping.

[Yshnal]

The problem is that, regardless of how much of a minority they are, giving raiders only 4 bosses to grind over for 6-7 months is just very, very little for a 2013 MMORPG. That's just fact. As I said in another thread, why not adapt to the situation (CT postponed, lack of endgame content) and make CT iLv90 so that it's actually relevant to everyone?

Only a tiny minorty has cleared turn 5, so the only reason to introduce anything of that level would be for variety's sake and not for progression, but at the expense of everyone else? Also, King Moogle is a new boss, and the other primals get new mechanics for their extreme versions, if what we saw in the live letter was any indication. After all, aren't all raid bosses just the same thing but with another skin and somewhat different mechanics? What's different with those new versions of already existing bosses? That they have the same skin as earlier? They're even updating the loot available for the new versions, not including the new skins from King Moogle.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. They're clearly rotating between updating BC and CT, so they obviously want to give things for everyone to do. They don't have infinite time or an unlimited budget, so that's all they can do if they want to be fair with their playerbase without discriminating any playstyle. Asking for more is simply unrealistic, or plainly selfish.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

Asking for more is simply unrealistic, or plainly selfish.

Thank you for name calling, I assume you've read my posting history to judge how selfish and unrealistic I am about MMORPG and players in general. You're so great yourself!

Wait, how is that selfish to suggest more content for everyone and their mother? Yeah, whatever.

As for the rest, I don't agree, 4 bosses is just not a lot, and different difficulty levels don't change the fact that other MMORPG's release raids with 6-13 bosses on a regular basis, so it's no unrealistic at all. With 3 or even 4 difficulty levels, on day 1 of their introduction. Fact.

[Ramzal]

Thank you for name calling, I assume you've read my posting history to judge how selfish and unrealistic I am about MMORPG and players in general. You're so great yourself!

Wait, how is that selfish to suggest more content for everyone and their mother? Yeah, whatever.

As for the rest, I don't agree, 4 bosses is just not a lot, and different difficulty levels don't change the fact that other MMORPG's release raids with 6-13 bosses on a regular basis, so it's no unrealistic at all. With 3 or even 4 difficulty levels, on day 1 of their introduction. Fact.

So, how come you don't write a letter to Square with your concerns or attempt to get a job in game design to make these differences? (Not sarcasm. This is an actual question.) If you don't like something, take action to change it. I don't think arguing with people on the internet, or stating your opinion/perspective on things as fact will help.

I said earlier that I'm fine either way with how this content goes. If they keep it so that you make an 8 man team and have to duty find the next 16, that's fine by me. If they change it, that's fine too. Just think of it as a challenge in of itself or a chance to improve on leadership skills. Coordinate with other groups--or if you have to, delegate what can be done. If you all fail and die a lot, that's fine. It's a learning process for everyone. Often in life, you'll be tasked to work with people you don't know. Maybe even people you don't like and sometimes people you -think- you won't like until you get to know them better. It's really no different here. If we could go through our lives being able to do every single task with the same group of people we know, where the development? Where's the variety?

I think that there will be a greater feeling of accomplishment to be matched up with random people and pull through. Sure you want to play with your entire FC, but really you'll still be able to. Just with seven of them in this case. And if things get too dull, switch up your roster a bit. Hey, you can even see a few tactics that other people use and they get to see yours. Try to think of it in a more positive light.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

Will you please stop posting interesting comments? because then I have to answer and that ends up in a wall of text. lol.
(i’ll hide it a bit to avoid the "wall-of-text syndrome")

So, how come you don't write a letter to Square with your concerns or attempt to get a job in game design to make these differences? (Not sarcasm. This is an actual question.) If you don't like something, take action to change it. I don't think arguing with people on the internet, or stating your opinion/perspective on things as fact will help.

Haha, I think you’re right about that. Taking action is what eventually matters.

In my personal case, I probably wouldn’t be worth much to SE or any other game developer since I don’t have the technical skills to program games, and that’s an absolute pre-requisite to be a game designer (as far as I know). I'm a geek fond of technology and science but I don't think that makes me a coder. My skills are more along the lines of writing, communication and management. Maybe as producer or something that would work, but then again without prior experience and no technical knowledge? I doubt many would be interested, I also don’t know if I’d actually be able to pull it off. I do a bit of amateur game critique in my spare time though, and maybe that’s where I’d be the most useful to this industry, should I make it a job. But let’s not digress, that was just to answer your question.

What we do on forums is theoretical, imaginary design. Reality is a bit more complex than that. What we can do, as players, is voice our appreciation of various mechanics (feedback), and provide insights from one game to another. Sort of pollination, so to speak But it doesn’t mean much more than that. And you’re right, arguing is pointless. It’s just an emotional need, I guess, to reply when something just doesn’t seem right.

I said earlier that I'm fine either way with how this content goes. If they keep it so that you make an 8 man team and have to duty find the next 16, that's fine by me. If they change it, that's fine too. Just think of it as a challenge in of itself or a chance to improve on leadership skills. Coordinate with other groups--or if you have to, delegate what can be done. If you all fail and die a lot, that's fine. It's a learning process for everyone. Often in life, you'll be tasked to work with people you don't know. Maybe even people you don't like and sometimes people you -think- you won't like until you get to know them better. It's really no different here. If we could go through our lives being able to do every single task with the same group of people we know, where the development? Where's the variety?

I think that there will be a greater feeling of accomplishment to be matched up with random people and pull through. Sure you want to play with your entire FC, but really you'll still be able to. Just with seven of them in this case. And if things get too dull, switch up your roster a bit. Hey, you can even see a few tactics that other people use and they get to see yours. Try to think of it in a more positive light.

Well, I’ll say this. I totally agree with you, especially when considering real-life. You’ve got that right.

However… this is a game. It’s not meant to be a chore, and if I could deal with it on a personal level, that’s not what most players are looking for. If they don’t have enough friends, sure they’ll appreciate an auto-grouping feature and that’s why most MMO’s implement one. But if they do have enough friends (or guild mates, companions, etc.), they’ll want to play with them. Because that’s the whole point of forming a player association (PA) of like-minded individuals.

Which is why I think SE’s got it a bit backwards. Allowing people to pre-make 24-men groups should be paramount to releasing the 24-men content. It’s so obvious when you know how most players think that I can’t wrap my mind around the idea that SE thought this would go well.

As for accomplishment, challenge, and all that. You’re right in theory. But in practice, gamers don’t want a challenge forced on them because the game is lacking a feature that’s obvious and available in every other game of the same genre. For instance you could consider it a challenge to sort your inventory, but in practice most players just despise having to play inventory manager in a fantasy role-playing game…

So, on topic, while some would think it’s cool to try and kill bosses with a PUG—and you see that in other games, people recruiting for a raid around 8pm in a major city, it’s actually quite commonplace—many others would rather try it with their PA, because in their experience it’s what yields the best results. And by ‘best’, I mean "whatever makes them tick": you’ve got casual PA’s, hardcore competitive ones, some made of friends and friends of friends without external recruitment and no rules whatsoever besides "let’s play and have fun" (like mine), and so on. Everyone is entitled to its tastes.

Mixing these crowds together works in a virtual world, but not too closely; some need their static + vocal chat + grind/gear regulations and whatnot; others just wish to spend a nice moment with friends without being bothered getting the latest leet-gear (or worse, being forced to, or excluded for not having it). That’s where a tool such as a duty finder just doesn’t cut it (see: WoW’s LFR).

It’s a recipe for disaster actually, socially; it seems like forcing different minded individuals to play together in a game is the most assured way to bring about the worst in people. And I can understand why, from a cold sociological perspective, since at this point cooperation ceases to be a win-win situation: X bothers Y because they don’t have the same goal, each feels like the other is trolling and ruining the fun, because ‘fun’ is a subjective concept and they sure as hell don’t share the definition at that moment. Just read this thread, it’s quite obvious: "you allagan people will not let us play it the cool way" — "nah it’s you casual people who will hold us back and leech our performance" and so on. WoW’s LFR all over again. Certainly not the best raiding environment, regardless of one’s buttons.

About the parts in your post I highlighted in bold: I so agree with that. Wholeheartedly. However, unfortunately, duty finder is cross-server which means you don’t get to keep playing with the great people you meet. You can’t even befriend them to keep in touch, not even talk with them in /tell during the dungeon. I don’t really like these social boundaries, to be honest, and they are more rigid here than the usual for that matter. So in practice, it’s where a pre-made PUG works wonders, because players are from the same server, and it’s a great way to meet people (I know I do such pre-made PUGs in most MMO’s, even if I have a PA, because I like the feelings of adventure and learning process and everything you described). But no pre-mades, PUG’s or PA’s, for CT on release. That’s the uproar here, and I really can’t help but feel the frustration.

As for strategies, that works yeah, totally. And it’s an invaluable way to get better at playing. That’s also the whole point of reading/watching guides and their comments actually (metagame, on the internet), to know how others do it and improve yourself.