A plea to reconsider Inner Beast changes

[Paikis]

Some people just refuse to be convinced Paikis. I'm more than happy to accept differing opinions on the new IB, after all it can really be seen as a buff in some content (especially prior to gearing) but it's really sad how grossly misinformed a lot of WAR are over the intricacies of the current IB. People will fight you tooth and nail to tell you how wrong you are regardless of what numbers you show them. Given the upcoming change I'm at least glad I won't have to have the same tired discussion about it.

I have come to this conclusion as well.

I have posted a screenshot previously of me hitting 1194 Inner Beast without the group STR buff. But I can't be arsed digging it out for people who wont be convinced anyway. I'm sure it's just because I'm an ego-driven elitist who is just being carried by his healers. Whatever.

Anyways, yes I would prefer seeing the DR put onto Steel Cyclone. That would give us a choice, do I want the huge heal? Or do I want the damage reduction?

[CurlyBruce]

I have posted a screenshot previously of me hitting 1194 Inner Beast without the group STR buff. But I can't be arsed digging it out for people who wont be convinced anyway. I'm sure it's just because I'm an ego-driven elitist who is just being carried by his healers. Whatever.

I'd be very interested in seeing this as by all accounts with your current gear (388 STR 237 Det) your maximum Inner Beast with Maim,Storm's Eye, Berserk, and Crit should be 1032. Even with party buff you'll only get to 1058. So I'm curious how you managed to pull this wonderful feat of hax damage.

[Giantbane]

I have come to this conclusion as well.

I have posted a screenshot previously of me hitting 1194 Inner Beast without the group STR buff. But I can't be arsed digging it out for people who wont be convinced anyway. I'm sure it's just because I'm an ego-driven elitist who is just being carried by his healers. Whatever.

Anyways, yes I would prefer seeing the DR put onto Steel Cyclone. That would give us a choice, do I want the huge heal? Or do I want the damage reduction?

It's easy to be skeptical. Look up a few posts and you'll see symba doing 985 crit with berserk active. She has about 35 more STR than you and more DET. You *do* have bravura +1 and she only has bravura so that's an advantage to you. However, I've heard that's about worth 8str points, that only cuts the STR gap in half (and does nothing for DET). How did you manage to do an extra 200 damage? That seems unlikely.

I wanted to test this further, I also have a +1, threw on a couple dps acc and was able to push my STR to 377 and DET to 227 (11 and 10 less than you respectively). Then I went and hit a striking dummy for a long time (more than 30min, hitting 1-2-3 while reading something else). Mixed in berserks, even tested out some Hi potions of STR to push my STR higher than yours (to 404). With my base stats, I was hitting in the 400-440 (non-crit) with maim & SE up. If I used the STR pots I pushed as high as 480 (non-crit). STR pots, berserk and crit I was able to push as high as 700 (1050 crit). So I have no idea how you managed an 1194 inner beast unless you had all your points allocated into STR at the time. Even if you did, that only gives you 418 STR, which is only 14 more strength the me using the pot. So it still doesn't make any sense, 14 STR shouldn't = 150 more damage, even under berserk and crit.

Using your Wrath stacks will heal you for anywhere between 1k and up to 4k (my highest so far is 3.7k and I average 1.8-2k without Berserk)

1.8-2k without berserk, how is that possible. You need to be hitting 600 dmg+ without berserk. By pushing my STR higher than what you currently have displayed (melded acc and all), I couldn't touch 500 damage without a crit. And without IB i'm not critting very often so you can't count on that or call it average.

If you're getting 2k out of Inner Beast (I haven't seen one for much less than this in quite some time. No crit, no Berserk, just Maim and SE).

Again, how is this possible. You only have 11 more STR than i'm testing with and 10 more DET. That's not enough to justify getting 150+ more out of your inner beast. Even with the group buff, is it giving you something like 75 STR to make that possible?!

Incidentally, i took my Gryphonskin stuff off and went and smacked a dummy. 450-500 damage, no crits, no berserk. 1.5k healed.

Ok, now this is HIGHLY suspect. Taking off your accessories, will drop you down 45 STR and 20 DET. This drops you down to 343 STR and 217 DET and lower stats than I am testing with. And yet somehow you were able to smack the same dummy as I was for more damage?! That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. To test it out, I swapped out some gear to give me 342 STR and 225 DET. I was hitting for mostly 380. How exactly do you account for the extra 100 damage you're claiming?

[Leiron]

Math> opinions.
The two of you are wrong thanks.

[Xenobius]

Inner Beast DR component is a band-aid fix.
To solve the Inner Beast damage vs. healing needed problem without turning WARs into re-skinned PLDs, it should use a partially static number mechanic based off your max HP, so ideally it would look like "deals x amount of damage and creates a shield absorbing <15% of your maximum HP +300% of IB damage> points of damage". This way it would scale much better with gear and still be more interesting to play around with Berserk/Maim.

[Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam]

Yeah, with some tuning that's another perfectly viable route they could have taken. VIT scales much better alongside incoming damage than STR does, alleviating any concerns for the foreseeable future.

Math> opinions.
The two of you are wrong thanks.

What math? All I see is blind delusion. The reality as it is very, very rare for IB to result in any loss of healing, the few times it does is either a case of just... not popping it or still going ahead with it because regardless of the minor healing loss, it's often the safer option. It doesn't matter if you effectively lost 200 HP, you negated the risk of getting finished by an auto-attack or maybe even something like MB.

[Paikis]

Math> opinions.
The two of you are wrong thanks.

Funny, my maths is the only stuff I see in this thread. All I ever see is statements that there is maths, maths has happened at some point, and this maths that happened means I'm wrong!

[Leiron]

Funny, my maths is the only stuff I see in this thread. All I ever see is statements that there is maths, maths has happened at some point, and this maths that happened means I'm wrong!

*points at Kitru's signature*
*points at game's signature*

All of the information is there, and shows that Inner beast is a weak cooldown in comparison to the multiude of cooldowns Paladins possess.


@Jam: The math that is in several topics in this forum, the math which is very easily found if you chose to try and contradict yourself than play ignorant. INner beast does not scale nearly as quickly as incoming damage, for it to do so would require it to be more thana 300 potency ability, and because it is reactive, it means that unless you are exceptionally organized, you can contribute to overhealing, which is wasted healing, which is wasted mitigation. Which weakens you because of the cost to your healing bonus.

[Paikis]

All of the information is there, and shows that Inner beast is a weak cooldown in comparison to the multiude of cooldowns Paladins possess.

@Jam: The math that is in several topics in this forum, the math which is very easily found if you chose to try and contradict yourself than play ignorant. INner beast does not scale nearly as quickly as incoming damage, for it to do so would require it to be more thana 300 potency ability, and because it is reactive, it means that unless you are exceptionally organized, you can contribute to overhealing, which is wasted healing, which is wasted mitigation. Which weakens you because of the cost to your healing bonus.

*sigh* OK, I'll bite. Who is game anyways?

The maths in Kitru's signature is comparing DPS between PLDs in Sword Oath and WARs outside of Defiance. What exactly has that got to do with Inner Beast, when you should use it, or it's heal versus the healing bonus of Wrath? For that matter, what has *anything* that has to do with Paladins got to do with using Inner Beast or not? Did you even read the thread, or are you just mindlessly fanboying?

Also, we're back to no maths. Just more statements that maths was done and is somewhere and I'm wrong.

EDIT: I just re-read the thread, and it basically comes down to Kitru twisting situations around to fit his/her view point and then just stating that something is true, with no maths to back it. In the majority of cases, you should be using Inner Beast after the spike, and NOT holding your stacks.

[Leiron]

10 character

*sigh* OK, I'll bite. Who is game anyways?
Also, we're back to no maths. Just more statements that maths was done and is somewhere and I'm wrong.

EDIT: I just re-read the thread, and it basically comes down to Kitru twisting situations around to fit his/her view point and then just stating that something is true, with no maths to back it. In the majority of cases, you should be using Inner Beast after the spike, and NOT holding your stacks.

The math in Kitru's signature is comparing DPS between PLDs in Sword Oath and WARs outside of Defiance. What exactly has that got to do with Inner Beast, when you should use it, or it's heal versus the healing bonus of Wrath? For that matter, what has *anything* that has to do with Paladins got to do with using Inner Beast or not? Did you even read the thread, or are you just mindlessly fanboying?[/quote]
one of the assertions wa sa concern about DPS, Kitru's addresses it.
One of the concerns was the effectiveness of Inner beast, which Ktru also addressed.

I cannot understand why agreeing with someone is fanboying.
I suppose you must be slobbering all over Jam just because he shares the same opinion as you?
If you are going to accuse someone of fanboying, at least try to avoid acting in a way that can be seen as actually fanboying.
"These people will never understand anytihng, blah blah blah, smear smeear smear."


The math has been, the information is present, a reactive heal that is present at the very least, 4 GCD's, is incomparable to the likes of abilities such as Hallowed ground, Sentinel, Rampart and bulwark.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, it is reactive heal, and wasted healing = lost mitigation.
The damage that IB does also does not scale the same way incoming damage does.
You can easily compare level 35 damage/vitality, then compare t to level 50 BIS damage/vitality and find the ratio becomes smaller and smaller as you gear up

Meaning IB's scale is poor.
The only math you have done is suggest you've done a 2k IB with only SE/Maim which is not possible.

On top of this, you suggested Kitru twisted the situation's around, and thens uggest he provided no mathematical data when it is the opposite. So you either skimmed, ignored the math, or you're just intentionally being ignorant.