Balance analysis of 2.1 WAR proposed changes

[SwordCoheir]

This doesn't seem equal to me.

It's a matter of perspective with CC abilities really, I kind of consider the traits each job has as a factor as well, but even then the balance is hard to determine based on preference, playstyle, and category of the ability.

Like I said before though, WAR is going to be a bit more double edged and split down the middle on Mitigation, Enmity, and Damage. Instead of managing one rotation like PLD, you need to optimize using three WS tree's which if your not tanking it's not a big deal, but you might struggle a bit more with Enmity when you're trying to use SP/SE's effects, or forgo their effects for the sake of crowd control. The same can be said about using Unchained and IB you can pick DPS or Survivability but not both.

[Shingi]

I am all for the classes being equally viable and equally good at main tanking, off-tanking, whatever, but you can't make them equal in one aspect and ignore the rest. Equality should be throughout to truly be equal.

here's why those changes were made, emnity increase allows WAR to use the new debuff skills in rotation rather than having to constantly spam the butcher's block combo just to keep hate, TP reduction is so we dont run out in longer fights trying to keep hate (PLD has MP refresh to keep flash running for emnity)

there's no change in CC skills because there's no need for it, WAR was always designed to have a higher damage output over PLD as our emnity has to come from that, we can cross-class flash sure, but its not as effective as a PLD's version and we cant refresh our MP to keep using it.

with the changes bringing WAR eHP up to par with PLD, i'd say the original balance while keeping the difference in playstyle between the two jobs is restored.. and there SHOULD be a difference, or whats the point in having two tanking jobs?

[TouchandFeel]

Snip

Honestly, the majority of your points I understand and agree with.

I still feel that the choices that WAR have for CC skills are a bit better in group/boss content, but that is the only part of what you said that we might differ on.

[Gamemako]

with the changes bringing WAR eHP up to par with PLD, i'd say the original balance while keeping the difference in playstyle between the two jobs is restored.. and there SHOULD be a difference, or whats the point in having two tanking jobs?

I'm personally still disappointed that they didn't try to focus on reworking the self-healing aspect, but what they have suggested will more or less work where the old design simply didn't.

I am still leaning against the particular changes to Vengeance, though. From a design standpoint, I still feel it would better be placed on Unchained than Vengeance. Both are an effective damage increase, but Unchained would additionally reduce the ability to stack buffs too frequently, and would avoid potential design issues for the MRD second job.

//EDIT:

Why is war ahead on effective health baseline in the graph they are 5% behind pld. 20% more healing does not equal 20% less damage taken. You need 25% healing to equal that.

Effective HP is a function of total HP and guaranteed bonuses. It does not concern healing bonuses at all. WAR and PLD have nearly identical base HP, and WAR gets +25% HP while PLD gets a 20% damage reduction which is an effective increase of 25%. WAR is slightly ahead due to the 85 HP advantage the job gets at base.

Since you have requested, the example there is at 6000 HP for the PLD, which is 6085 HP for the WAR. After Defiance, WAR has 7606 and the PLD has an effective 7500.

[Vire]

Effective HP is a function of total HP and guaranteed bonuses. It does not concern healing bonuses at all. WAR and PLD have nearly identical base HP, and WAR gets +25% HP while PLD gets a 20% damage reduction which is an effective increase of 25%. WAR is slightly ahead due to the 85 HP advantage the job gets at base.

The problem is you are not taking into account that filling up that 25% extra hp on both tanks are not equal.
This is why you do effective health because this is not very clear unless you show how much actual hp a Pld and War have when it comes to healing and taking damage not just the total number when they are full.

edit:

This fine poster did the math already so instead of redoing it ill paste it.

Effective health:
Assuming both have 5500 HP before stances
Warrior: 5500 * 1.25 = 6875
Paladin: 5500 + 20% dmg reduction = HP/(1 – 0.2) -> HP = 5500/0.8 = 6875
So without heals the effective health is the same, but things change once healing is taken into account. Tanks take 5k dmg over time and need to healed.
Paladin: 5000 * 0.8 = 4000 dmg to be healed
Warrior: 5000 dmg to be healed
Even with the warrior buff it is still a bit harder to heal the warrior. Paladin requires 4k to be topped off, if the warrior got 4k heals, with its bonus it would get healed for 4800 hps , 200hp short to be back up max. For the warrior to be healed to full with the same heals the paladin requires it would need a 25% healing buff instead of 20.

[Shingi]

I'm personally still disappointed that they didn't try to focus on reworking the self-healing aspect, but what they have suggested will more or less work where the old design simply didn't.

I am still leaning against the particular changes to Vengeance, though. From a design standpoint, I still feel it would better be placed on Unchained than Vengeance. Both are an effective damage increase, but Unchained would additionally reduce the ability to stack buffs too frequently, and would avoid potential design issues for the MRD second job.

i'm in agreement that a change to the self-healing would have been the more "thematic" change, but scaling that so its effective at endgame and not overpowering for other content would require a level of fine-tuning that could take several months, and WAR needed a change quickly, and could very likely be "exploited" (or used in an unexpected/unpredicted-by-the-dev-team manner) much like taking 2 PLD's into coil was. of course any change to any class can produce that result,,

I'm unsure of a few of the changes also, mercy stroke's alteration makes little to no sense to me, as for me its issue wasnt about the cooldown, but the timing required to get an effective heal from it when you have 7 other people involved in combat. holmgang's change looks more like a provoke-replacer as well, and i'm unsure how that will effect dynamics in two-tank events. can only wait and see how the players take on these changes and how they effect balance though.

[Yunnie]

War Defiance will give +20% healing received .. Along with +25% HP... How does that affect eHP?
It looks like in your equation, your not listing it

My interpretation is your listing defiance as only +25% HP without taking into account healing received bonuses-
Edit:
Never mid - I re-read some other prior posts, and you don't consider healing received part of eHP. So ignore this post of mine

[Mihael_Longclaw]

Quick question, does PLD's Blind effect stack with Featherfoot?
I just see these 2 jobs accenting eachother so well now.

[Leiron]

Ah right looked back, yeah its a minor heal. I am okay with that.

[fuzz]

Awesome analysis. I skimmed through everything, but the graphs were extremely helpful in understanding your analysis w.o having to read everything

-fuzz