Problem with summoner DPS pet issue.

[Squa]

Ok, so I got the FFXIVAPP parser installed yesterday, and decided to do some fun testing on dummy.

I sat with my Summoner at dummy and put all my pets on "obey" (it means they only cast their main nuke. Here were the results. I reset each time for each pet.


Ifrit-Egi: Burning Strike nuke 120 potency, 3 sec cd
58 DPS

Garuda Egi: Wind Blade nuke 100 potency, 3 sec cd
64 DPS

Titan-Egi: nuke 90 potency, 3 sec cd
42 DPS

so, it seems weird that Ifrit-Egi does less DPS than Garuda-Egi, especially since Garuda has the advantage of being ranged (safe) and has a lower potency main nuke. Can anyone make heads or tails of this? It may have to do with the autoattack (not the 3 sec nuke) of Garuda being higher than Ifrit. This seems very weird though.


EDIT: I did this test again using "SIC" command, which pet casts all skills, to see if it would make any difference

Ifrit-Egi:
58 DPS (same, no change)
This seems odd as one of Ifrit main abilities is Radient Shield, which causes damage to enemies when they attack him. However Ifrit will almost never be a tank since Titan is the appropriate tank summon, and in a dungeon there will be a dedicated tank class (PLD/WAR)

Garuda Egi: Wind Blade nuke 100 potency, 3 sec cd
58 DPS (lower)
I observed the total DPS is lower, because using her 3rd ability, Aerial Slash, has a 3 sec cast time, so this prevents her from doing other things. However, this was done with a test dummy next to another one, and the aoe attack would hit both dummies counting towards more DPS, nonetheless, resulted in lower DPS overall.

Titan-Egi: nuke 90 potency, 3 sec cd
42 DPS


EDIT EDIT: I think I figured out what was going on, but I still dont understand it. Seems the Ifrit pet, has both an autoattack (melee), and the normal ability cast. However, Garuda only has her ability cast (no autoattack).
So, for the numbers:
Ifrit-Egi
Burning Strike (120 potency) hits for average of 130 every 3 seconds
autoattack hits for average 65 (unknown time period, approximately 3 seconds)

Garuda-Egi
Wind Blade (100 potency) hits for 190 damage average every 3 seconds
no autoattack

So this raises more questions, why does windblade do 50% more damage than Burning Strike, when it has 20 less potency?

[pandabearcat]

Garuda doesn't have an autoattack, but ifrit is bugged and his 3 second ability is actually on a longer cooldown, resulting in lower dps.

[Kuinu]

The fact that Garuda adds 15 seconds to most of your DoTs on an enemy makes Ifrit useless.

[Alberel]

The fact that Garuda adds 15 seconds to most of your DoTs on an enemy makes Ifrit useless.

That's precisely the problem. If Ifrit was given much higher attack damage that Garuda then he would be situationally useful. Contagion is perfect for boss fights but in cases of large groups dying quickly Ifrit would actually be a better option. We really need the different summons to have situational uses.

[T0rin]

That's precisely the problem. If Ifrit was given much higher attack damage that Garuda then he would be situationally useful. Contagion is perfect for boss fights but in cases of large groups dying quickly Ifrit would actually be a better option. We really need the different summons to have situational uses.

Even with added damage, Contagion extending RS'd DoTs and allowing me to do other stuff for 15 seconds is a pretty substantial DPS increase. I would be hard pressed to give that up for raw damage, even if in the end they came out to be about the same.

I don't know what content I would not want Contagion for, it would have to be stuff where fights last less than 30 seconds, which isn't much. (even the fastest WP)

[pandabearcat]

This has already been discussed.

Contagion is like a 3% DPS increase, just like RS is only a 3% dps increase.

Its really not as high of a margin as you think.

The convenience of contagion is nice, of course, but if ifrit did more damage I wouldn't hesistate so use him.

Contagion gives you roughly 8 GCDs every 3 minutes (since every 3 minute snapshot has you using contagion 3 times).

If we assume 2 of those GCDs are during RS, then you get 80*(1.2*2+6) = 672 potency worth.

This is equivalent to 3.73 pps, which will be a ~3% dps increase.

In order for ifrit to match that damage, he needs to do 11.2 more pps than garuda every 3 seconds. Even ignoring autoattacks, if they just fix the damage on Ifrit's attack, and its bugged cooldown, he would give garuda a run for its money.

[Kevee]

This has already been discussed.

Contagion is like a 3% DPS increase, just like RS is only a 3% dps increase.

Its really not as high of a margin as you think.

The convenience of contagion is nice, of course, but if ifrit did more damage I wouldn't hesistate so use him.

Contagion gives you roughly 8 GCDs every 3 minutes (since every 3 minute snapshot has you using contagion 3 times).

If we assume 2 of those GCDs are during RS, then you get 80*(1.2*2+6) = 672 potency worth.

This is equivalent to 3.73 pps, which will be a ~3% dps increase.

In order for ifrit to match that damage, he needs to do 11.2 more pps than garuda every 3 seconds. Even ignoring autoattacks, if they just fix the damage on Ifrit's attack, and its bugged cooldown, he would give garuda a run for its money.

Don't forget that Ifrit needs DK(ST), while Garuda needs FR(AoE).

Which one are you more likely to get?

And you can't strictly speak about DPS, because you have to factor in the utility of Contagion, such as in Turn 4 and first boss of AK, Titan, Twintania, Ifrit, Garuda, etc. Almost every encounter benefits greatly from the utility of Contagion towards beating that encounter. Contagion is just so useful, DPS aside(although that usefulness provides even more DPS). I hate to say it, but Contagion has to either be removed, or Ifrit has to be at least as strong as potentially 3 DoTs + Garuda, for us to find ANY use in Ifrit. Ifrit CANNOT match Bane-ing Contagion'd DoTs to Conflags, titan Gaols, psycheflayer, bees, gargoyles, feathers, nail, etc. Not even mentioning RS.

Also OP, this info has been known for ages and I've been posting about it in the various SMN threads.

[T0rin]

This has already been discussed.

Contagion is like a 3% DPS increase, just like RS is only a 3% dps increase.

Its really not as high of a margin as you think.

The convenience of contagion is nice, of course, but if ifrit did more damage I wouldn't hesistate so use him.

Contagion gives you roughly 8 GCDs every 3 minutes (since every 3 minute snapshot has you using contagion 3 times).

If we assume 2 of those GCDs are during RS, then you get 80*(1.2*2+6) = 672 potency worth.

This is equivalent to 3.73 pps, which will be a ~3% dps increase.

In order for ifrit to match that damage, he needs to do 11.2 more pps than garuda every 3 seconds. Even ignoring autoattacks, if they just fix the damage on Ifrit's attack, and its bugged cooldown, he would give garuda a run for its money.

Fair enough. Not a huge DPS increase, but still, as Kevee mentioned and I alluded to, the utility of not having to re-DoT for 15 seconds gives me the potential to do other stuff while maintaining my primary source of damage.

The pps increase also doesn't factor in Bane'd dots vs non-Contagion'd Bane'd dots, or the opportunities to Fester more frequently.

Contagion makes Bane a lot more powerful.

Not to mention the issue of a melee pet vs a range pet and the micro management necessary for positioning to keep it alive.

[pandabearcat]

Yes, this is true.

Garuda is definitely not a bad pet, and it is unlikely it will go anywhere.

However it won't take much for ifrit to be competitive, just needs to actually get his bugs fixed.

I think at some point pet swapping is going to become a thing, if not during fights then at least between fights.

Also generally speaking, unless there are a lot of DoTs being placed on the ground, melee pets have little to zero trouble with AoE, as they get healed by healer AoEs too.

And for target swapping, unless you desperately need your pet on one target you can leave your pet on the main target forever.

We should be happy if ifrit gets more use lol, more choices are more fun.

[Kevee]

However it won't take much for ifrit to be competitive, just needs to actually get his bugs fixed.

I really, really, disagree.

There is no way Ifrit can match the power of Bio/Bio II/Miasma + Garuda. Not unless it's so strong that it invalidates Garuda/Contagion completely.

On a pure ST basis? Yeah, but how many fights are like that unless you ignore mechanics? Not to mention you only ignore mechanics(such as Garuda feathers) when you vastly overgear the content, and at that point it wouldn't matter if you used Garuda or Ifrit.

If you're on-item-level for 50 content, Ifrit can do nothing to match Bane+Contagion against: Ifrit, all bosses of AK, 2nd/3rd boss of WP, Garuda, Titan, Turn 4, Twintania. All bosses of CM/Prae(Minus 1st UW fight).

Ifrit would only see use, as a ST damage dealer, for Caduceus(if no target switching), ADS(If you kill off the fire lasers, the DoT murders pets), and first boss of WP. All other fights, Contagion+Bane simply can't be matched unless Ifrit is so strong that it would invalidate using that combination.

I stand by my statement that we will never have a choice as long as Contagion exists, or Ifrit can't overcome 3 DoTs+Garuda(at which point we still won't have a choice, Garuda won't be used). There's really no way to equalize it, without a complete re-working of how pets function/what they do. I mean, sure, situationally we could use one pet or the other, such as a pure ST fight. This would be fine, but based on the encounters we've seen, I doubt we'll have a boss where it's just a strict ST DPS check.

Not to mention pet-switching is not a valid tactic due to MP concerns.

I assumed you meant bane, in which case, yea ifrit is going to lose unless he gets an aoe that is much better than garuda's.

One way to do this would perhaps just make his shield be an aoe pulsing tick instead of an on hit shield.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not attacking you, Panda. You're probably my most respected poster on this forum.

I want to use other pets.

If Garuda/Ifrit were equal, Ifrit would still not be used. Melee vs. Ranged, and FR vs. DK. There is no reason to use melee, DPS being equal, unless a mechanic requires it. It's detrimental to be melee.

If Ifrit was greater, there would be no reason to use Garuda besides on very niche fights with target switching/different spawn locations, like Turn 4, or Ifrit. Other that that? I couldn't really see a use if Ifrit did more AoE and ST. That still has a great disparity of pet usage, although less than what is present now.

Pets need to have a defined role, and then the MP cost needs to be lowered, along with cast time. We should use an AE pet when we need AE, and ST when we need ST. As it is now, we have to find the "best overall" for the entire encounter, and use that. With fight mechanics, and fight design(if it continues), this will always be Garuda.