Why no speculation on Jobs for crafting classes?

[Dragon]

The crafting classes are as specialized as you can get.

[Sorel]

The crafting classes are as specialized as you can get.

I disagree.

Shipwright (boats). Engineer (machina). Architect (buildings).

[Amineri]

The crafting classes are as specialized as you can get.

I found a few similar sentiments throughout this thread, but I am picking this one out as representative.

I must respectfully disagree that crafting classes are as specialized as you can get. I will take weaving for my example. If I spin 3,000,000 spools of yarn, suddenly I am an expert at sewing hats, gloves, robes, pants, etc, as well as weaving cloth.

A clear direction for specialization is to follow the skill books already available to the various crafting classes.

Possible jobs (specializations) for crafting classes include:
Hatmaking
Glovemaking
Various forms of Tailoring
Weaving
Spinning
etc, etc.

I don't know that such job specializations should take the same form as combat job specializations - there are different goals and requirements for the different classes.

My personal preference would be for the branching specialization scheme that was proposed (by a group of players) for combat.

Again, taking weaving as an example. Weaving is a generic skill from ranks 1 to 50, allowing you to make all weaving goods equally as well. However, from ranks 51 to 70, say, the generic weaving skill is no longer available. Instead, one could rank the spinning specialization, the weaving specialization, the hat-making specialization, the fletching specialization, etc. Advancement in one specialization would not preclude advancing in another, but each would have to be ranked up separately. Another branching point could potentially happen from 71 to 90, and then from 91 to 100 -- all depending on how the developers plan to raise the rank cap.

Comments? Critiques? Suggestions? Flames?

[SuzakuCMX]

I found a few similar sentiments throughout this thread, but I am picking this one out as representative.

I must respectfully disagree that crafting classes are as specialized as you can get. I will take weaving for my example. If I spin 3,000,000 spools of yarn, suddenly I am an expert at sewing hats, gloves, robes, pants, etc, as well as weaving cloth.

A clear direction for specialization is to follow the skill books already available to the various crafting classes.

Possible jobs (specializations) for crafting classes include:
Hatmaking
Glovemaking
Various forms of Tailoring
Weaving
Spinning
etc, etc.

I don't know that such job specializations should take the same form as combat job specializations - there are different goals and requirements for the different classes.

My personal preference would be for the branching specialization scheme that was proposed (by a group of players) for combat.

Again, taking weaving as an example. Weaving is a generic skill from ranks 1 to 50, allowing you to make all weaving goods equally as well. However, from ranks 51 to 70, say, the generic weaving skill is no longer available. Instead, one could rank the spinning specialization, the weaving specialization, the hat-making specialization, the fletching specialization, etc. Advancement in one specialization would not preclude advancing in another, but each would have to be ranked up separately. Another branching point could potentially happen from 71 to 90, and then from 91 to 100 -- all depending on how the developers plan to raise the rank cap.

Comments? Critiques? Suggestions? Flames?

Because grinding a craft isn't painful enough already.

[Amineri]

Because grinding a craft isn't painful enough already.

I 100% agree. Hence my solution provides AT LEAST 10 times the pain!

Ah, I love sarcasm. <3

Seriously, I agree that crafting is a fairly painful grind. But I think the solution to that is to make the crafting experience more fun, rather than simply allowing people to max out all craft classes in short order.

Allowing specialization of crafting jobs does a couple of things:
1) Allows a player with less time to at least PARTICIPATE in the crafting economy. By going "depth-first", and focussing upon one specialization, such a player can still achieve mastery.
2) Prevents players from too quickly mastering ALL crafts. I saw that happen in Fallen Earth, and it really wrecked the economy. Once all players can make all items, the drive to exchange goods and items really falls off.

Making crafting more enjoyable should be a separate task, imho. Specifically, after Matsui-san finishes (enough) with the battle system changes to have some free time, I'd like to see the battle team turn its collective eye to improving the crafting / gathering play experience. You can see my appeal here : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post152005

[SuzakuCMX]

I 100% agree. Hence my solution provides AT LEAST 10 times the pain!

Ah, I love sarcasm. <3

Seriously, I agree that crafting is a fairly painful grind. But I think the solution to that is to make the crafting experience more fun, rather than simply allowing people to max out all craft classes in short order.

Allowing specialization of crafting jobs does a couple of things:
1) Allows a player with less time to at least PARTICIPATE in the crafting economy. By going "depth-first", and focussing upon one specialization, such a player can still achieve mastery.
2) Prevents players from too quickly mastering ALL crafts. I saw that happen in Fallen Earth, and it really wrecked the economy. Once all players can make all items, the drive to exchange goods and items really falls off.

Making crafting more enjoyable should be a separate task, imho. Specifically, after Matsui-san finishes (enough) with the battle system changes to have some free time, I'd like to see the battle team turn its collective eye to improving the crafting / gathering play experience. You can see my appeal here : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post152005

They probably have different teams for battle than for crafting/gathering, as they work verrrrryyy differently, but they do have some commonground (such as with some of the NM drops -- if the drop is too common and it is a craftable item, it pretty much makes it worthless to craft that item at all).

As for the "DoH Jobs," I think they should wait until the player companies start because it seems like specialized jobs like painting (ITHASTOBEWEAVERBECAUSECANVAS) pictures, cobbling houses (maybe a miner? Not sure), building ships (Weavers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Armorers), etc. work mostly as part of a larger whole -- just making a sail doesn't really do anything if there's no ship, and you can't really build a ship without sails, nails, or steel reinforcement (or cannons etc).

Regardless I don't think a job specialized for hat crafting would work very well unless they drastically improved SP rates for crafting and also added a ton of variety to crafted items (like 5 different models per hat type -- yay sliders previewed in the "Making of Eorzea!")

And....I still have my fingers triple crossed (it's one after double...odds are trustworthy, right?) for a Chemist battle job that is learned from a DoH class...

[Amineri]

They probably have different teams for battle than for crafting/gathering, as they work verrrrryyy differently, but they do have some commonground (such as with some of the NM drops -- if the drop is too common and it is a craftable item, it pretty much makes it worthless to craft that item at all).

As for the "DoH Jobs," I think they should wait until the player companies start because it seems like specialized jobs like painting (ITHASTOBEWEAVERBECAUSECANVAS) pictures, cobbling houses (maybe a miner? Not sure), building ships (Weavers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Armorers), etc. work mostly as part of a larger whole -- just making a sail doesn't really do anything if there's no ship, and you can't really build a ship without sails, nails, or steel reinforcement (or cannons etc).

Regardless I don't think a job specialized for hat crafting would work very well unless they drastically improved SP rates for crafting and also added a ton of variety to crafted items (like 5 different models per hat type -- yay sliders previewed in the "Making of Eorzea!")

And....I still have my fingers triple crossed (it's one after double...odds are trustworthy, right?) for a Chemist battle job that is learned from a DoH class...

Agree 200% that the battle system is different from the craft / gather system, and that they have different teams working on them. However, there are fewer good previous examples of fun and engaging crafting / gathering systems to build from.

My suggestion is to have Matsui-san and some of the battle system team spend part of their time working WITH the craft / gather system team(s) to inject ideas into how to improve craft / gather gameplay.

It desperately needs something more than the same solo mini-game from rank 1 to 50, identical for all DoH classes. If the craft / gather mechanics became a little more "combat-like", I think that would be good, as long as they are enjoyable.

WARNING! MATH BELOW. THOSE ALLERGIC SHOULD SKIP TO END

As to specializing the crafting classes, the math works out. SP/XP curves are generally at least quadratic -- in FFXIV they seem to be somewhere around a 3rd or 4th degree polynomial. This means that the majority of the total SP lies at the end. E.g. it takes as much SP to go from rank 41 to 50 as it did to go from 1 to 41. I expect that this will stay the same. So, what really matters is the branching factor.

We have 8 crafts currently. Suppose each branches by 3 at rank 51, branches again by 3 at rank 71, and again by 3 at rank 91. This means that each original craft would have 27 specialty branches by rank 99. Since the majority of the SP required is from 91 to 99, this means that it would take on the order of 27 times as long to max out all 27 specialties compared to a single linear craft.

THOSE ALLERGIC TO MATH CAN JUST READ THE PART BELOW

If a single specialty in a single craft were reduced to 2 months to max, then to max all 27 would take 54 months ... which is 4.5 years. To max out all 8 crafts would take a staggering 36 years.

So, a single maxed out specialty in 2 months, yet effectively impossible to max out all crafts.

[Shai]

I found a few similar sentiments throughout this thread, but I am picking this one out as representative.

I must respectfully disagree that crafting classes are as specialized as you can get. I will take weaving for my example. If I spin 3,000,000 spools of yarn, suddenly I am an expert at sewing hats, gloves, robes, pants, etc, as well as weaving cloth.

A clear direction for specialization is to follow the skill books already available to the various crafting classes.

Possible jobs (specializations) for crafting classes include:
Hatmaking
Glovemaking
Various forms of Tailoring
Weaving
Spinning
etc, etc.

I don't know that such job specializations should take the same form as combat job specializations - there are different goals and requirements for the different classes.

My personal preference would be for the branching specialization scheme that was proposed (by a group of players) for combat.

Again, taking weaving as an example. Weaving is a generic skill from ranks 1 to 50, allowing you to make all weaving goods equally as well. However, from ranks 51 to 70, say, the generic weaving skill is no longer available. Instead, one could rank the spinning specialization, the weaving specialization, the hat-making specialization, the fletching specialization, etc. Advancement in one specialization would not preclude advancing in another, but each would have to be ranked up separately. Another branching point could potentially happen from 71 to 90, and then from 91 to 100 -- all depending on how the developers plan to raise the rank cap.

Comments? Critiques? Suggestions? Flames?

Your idea in general I like but common things already exist in the game as training manuals, like Cobbling & Sheeting. The Job system (as described) is for party play in battle, so it's not unreasonable to think that it would be for group play as crafting, also - to make larger things, buildings, ships, mog houses, giant cakes(?), etc. Those things could use specialized skill sets that draw on multiple weavers or blacksmiths doing different tasks.

Well, anyway, that's what I think. You're talking about some things that are already adapted into training manuals.

[Amineri]

Your idea in general I like but common things already exist in the game as training manuals, like Cobbling & Sheeting. The Job system (as described) is for party play in battle, so it's not unreasonable to think that it would be for group play as crafting, also - to make larger things, buildings, ships, mog houses, giant cakes(?), etc. Those things could use specialized skill sets that draw on multiple weavers or blacksmiths doing different tasks.

Well, anyway, that's what I think. You're talking about some things that are already adapted into training manuals.

Well, the job system for combat is being designed to enhance party play. Since there is no party play for crafting (as of yet), it doesn't seem in order. However, I would happily (gleefully, even) change my stance if party-play for crafting and gathering were introduced, in which case jobs to take on specific roles in party crafting / gathering could be a fantastic addition!

[Shai]

Well, the job system for combat is being designed to enhance party play. Since there is no party play for crafting (as of yet), it doesn't seem in order. However, I would happily (gleefully, even) change my stance if party-play for crafting and gathering were introduced, in which case jobs to take on specific roles in party crafting / gathering could be a fantastic addition!

Well they've said it's going to be introduced even after Yoshida took over.
That's what I'm talking about personally.

That a Job system overlay would work nicely hand-in-hand with large group-crafting projects. Assuming these projects are actually as big as I think and not something quick and simple. I guess time will tell. I think it's a good idea.