Why the netcode issue exists, and why it cannot be fixed.

[APilgrim]

Would disabling TCP-ACK through registry help this problem any? Dodging the AoE, that is. I'm pretty sure it did help a lot for me when I did it a week or two after live. Seeing as this game uses TCP, having it on can increase the latency by up to 200ms or so.

Sorry I misread originally and thought you were talking about a different registry hack (TcpAckFrequency) I've seen mentioned on here a lot. If that is what you are referring to, it didn't help but I noticed it did increase (pointless) protocol traffic on my network by a noticeable amount and interfered with my torrent client. If you have a lot of bandwidth you probably wouldn't notice a difference, and if you are limited on bandwidth, it may actually be counter-productive.

[Dyrstahl]

I award this whole technical discussion in this thread the "Most Interesting Discussion involving Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn"-title. Reading technical details about MMORPGs are always interesting, way too few discussions on these. Almost all the time, it's all so vague like "you're lagging cuz your latency is bad derp" or "to fix it, they need to programz teh latency better".

[Kevee]

I can't offer any real input on the topic, besides the fact that I agree with Alcyon_Densetsu about casting and client-side issues.

What may be happening, that was recently brought it, is that SE is using some over-complicated system. Perhaps when you press the key, on the client, it defaults to start a cast. The client assumes the server is going to get the command, and it's "correct". However, the cast completion and time is brought on by the server. So, until the server tells the client, "No, you're moving. Cast canceled." So it checks 2 different things for a single cast? I may have worded this wrong, or said the example wrong, but what I mean is that for a single action it can be using both live-states.



That said, I love FFXIV. I don't want to doom-and-gloom, but after playing many other MMOs and not having this problem, it's really making me doubt my long-time subscription to FFXIV. This is what is stopping me, and my group, from killing Twintania. I don't like, or want, or rely on addons or timers. I never had to in Rift(up to HK/RotP), and I can say that some of those fights were objectionably "harder." Akylios, Grugonim, Matron Zamira, etc were all amazing fights. It's coming to a point where I'm going to use a timer because, during the second set of Divebombs, by the time you see the green circle above someone's head OR twintania to run, I would say ~70% of the time it's too late. You're going to get hit. Not to mention that, while the current strategy of stacking in the "hole" is legitimate, I doubt that is what the intended design of the encounter wanted you to do. It was a strategy developed out of necessity to actually beat the encounter, much like the old pre-nerf twister strat.

[Phe]

I would like to hear from a SE Dev if this is actually the issue.

Thanks tho.

[APilgrim]

I can't offer any real input on the topic, besides the fact that I agree with Alcyon_Densetsu about casting and client-side issues.

What may be happening, that was recently brought it, is that SE is using some over-complicated system. Perhaps when you press the key, on the client, it defaults to start a cast. The client assumes the server is going to get the command, and it's "correct". However, the cast completion and time is brought on by the server. So, until the server tells the client, "No, you're moving. Cast canceled." So it checks 2 different things for a single cast? I may have worded this wrong, or said the example wrong, but what I mean is that for a single action it can be using both live-states.

You can mess around with it by getting in-game, turning off your router (you'll have a bit of time before the client figures out it's no longer connected), and run around casting something like Stoneskin. The client doesn't care and has no problem letting you run along while casting (and it will even apply the effect). If you are lagging horribly (get a few torrents downloading for example), you can get the same result even if you are still connected to the server - because neither the client nor the server care if the "interrupt casting" check from the server makes it in time. The client will still apply the effect and the server won't argue after the fact.

It can't be anything other than a simple check the server makes: Client tells server character is casting a spell so other clients can see the casting animation. Client updates server with location. .3 seconds later: client updates server with new location. Server sees location has changed and checks if previous casting action is allowed when moving. Sends notification that the client should interrupt casting if no. Doesn't do a thing if answer is yes.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what the confusion is with casting and moving?

[Kevee]

It can't be anything other than a simple check the server makes: Client tells server character is casting a spell so other clients can see the casting animation. Client updates server with location. .3 seconds later: client updates server with new location. Server sees location has changed and checks if previous casting action is allowed when moving. Sends notification that the client should interrupt casting if no. Doesn't do a thing if answer is yes.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what the confusion is with casting and moving?

Because if it was more of a client-side live-state, wouldn't the client cancel the cast on movement? I do agree with your other, bigger, post that the server is trusting your client(I have absolutely no credentials, it's just based off my my own personal anecdotal evidence), but the client should not allow that action in the first place.

This seems like a smaller issue(client allowing things it shouldn't) compared to the whole, and I don't want to detract from what is the problem.

What I want to say: I should not be able to move, use a spell/chocobo, and see a cast bar. Certainly not any part of it start to cast. I should not be able to move before a spell has finished casting, and still have the cast finish.
I should not have an interrupt-check be delayed. If I'm hit, by say Fireball from Twintania, it should interrupt my cast immediately. And all of these timings are never standard. They can vary wildly. Sometimes, as was said, you can complete a leeches/esuna cast completely on the move. Sometimes you can start moving as far as 1s left on cast.
I know that, generally, this has to do with latency, but it happens on far too regular of a scale, and especially compared to any other MMO.

Again, I don't have any credentials. I'm just your "average" person playing trying to give my input as to what I'm seeing, and what should/shouldn't be happening.


Edit: But if what your other post said was true, would that mean FFXIV has a client-side live-state while all other MMOs, generally, have a server-side live-state?

[Sybreed]

This thread is excellent and deserves to stay on page 1 until the issue is addressed.

[methylene]

OP Excuses for SE

TL;DR SE server architecture programmers are idiots. There summed it up for you, if this is is not fixed SE will lose millions by the cannibalization of active players that Teso, Wildstar, Warlords of Draenor will inflict on the game.

[Billie21]

This is going to be off-topic, but I feel it's too important not to react:

No offense, but your take on this seems more "deduced" and less "informed" by technical background in operating MMOG datacenters. I do respect your opinion but it doesn't seem as "definitive" as Sinth's —which was less discussing an opinion than a fact, at least in the way he worded it. Seems the man is quite positive on his analysis. That being said, I can't really comment on its validity, so I'll let others do that.

Please don't let how knowledgable someone appears lead you to (at least partially) blind trust. AsAPilgrim replied:

No offense taken, I didn't mention my technical background because it's the internet where anyone can be anything they want and I thought actual examples that everyone could observe would be more convincing and less argument prone. But I have a CCNA (routing and switching) background [and a misspent youth hacking games, if that means anything to anyone]. I'm by no means an MMO game developer - but fortunately no one needs to be to discuss this topic as it effects players. And we are all deducing here unfortunately since SE hasn't responded with any facts...

Anyone can say anything, it's true IRL, it's even more true on the Net. Besides, even someone really knowledgable, if good in communication, can twist truth to make it appear as they want. I speak from first hand experience (as a witness) on previous mmorpg, where I once saw a guy who was intelligent and very good at communication abuse the position he was in (and the additional information he had access to, which I had access to, too) to give away half-truths and gain enough respect from the community to manipulate it as a whole (or the majority of it anyway).

We are far from this case for now, and I am not saying APilgrim is lying or has malicious intent, but this is where the slope starts: when you start taking for granted what someone throws at you just because you respect (mistakenly or not) them. Let's keep to facts, please. Just because one has 50 years of experience desinging and programming MMORPGs as well as a PhD in netcode and thought of the Internet before it was even created and they even managed to hacked the CIA doesn't mean they'll never say BS (the fact that we are discussion the shortcommings of SE on a videogame here is proof enough that professionnal experience =/= always being right).
****************************************************************

Back on topic, I concur with whoever said that this was the most interesting discution on this forum, and thank all participants for their contribution.

As for the client-side theory:

snip

I was wondering the exact same thing.
If the game truly was working the client-side way, then why would the client let us commit impossible actions? There should be no need to check with the server to know that our character is currently moving, and cannot cast a spell or summon a chocobo.
I have a harder time believing that SE would make a shitty client than believing that they are having issues with handling the "online" aspect of their game (in the case of esuna and chocobo, this doesn't even require to go online if the game is based on the client rather than the server), considering SE's experience and usualy quality of video games. That being said, it might still be the case.

[APilgrim]

Because if it was more of a client-side live-state, wouldn't the client cancel the cast on movement?

Only if the client were programmed that way - but in FFXIV it's apparently not, and the client doesn't know (or much care) if it's not allowed unless told. As far as it's concerned, all's good with casting and running. And then even if the client is told by the server it's not allowed, the server doesn't care if it gets ignored.

I get what you mean regarding the wildly varying timing on things coming from the server, it's not very snappy - and I agree gameplay events feel very sloppy in comparison to other online games to me as well. But their servers have been overloaded since before day 1 of ARR (to the point where it was even a minor miracle to even get the attention of even the login server)... Maybe they've done everything that could be economically be done at this point and things will just continue to become more and more acceptable as numbers naturally decline? I don't know - but I'd guess it's more of a business decision and less of a technical decision to address. And while I hear zooming out further helps, unless SE chimes in at some point in better faith to address it with players, it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy that gets things to the point of being acceptable.

To Billie21 - Eh, a CCNA background has nothing to do with (MMO) game development, programming, or management - so it's a rather innocuous thing to bring up in this topic. It was only brought up as a very direct response to someone. I fully admit (again) to trying to deduce things second-hand along with everyone else since none of us work for SE and SE isn't responding or talking. And with that said, I'm bowing out of this interesting topic with the hope that it is eventually addressed further.