So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

[Exstal]

How is a healer only doing 25 less DPS than a dedicated DPS class? That doesn't add up.

This is more realistic

WAR - 170 DPS
Healer - 100% Healing
Healer - 150 DPS
Healer - 150 DPS
DPS X 4 - 800 DPS

Total - 1270 DPS
*** War will only receive 115% Healing with Infuriate

PLD - 110 DPS
Healer - 30 DPS 80% Healing
Healer - 150 DPS
DD X 5 1000 DPS

Total - 1290 DPS
*** PLD will receive 120% Healing in Shield Oath.

[Kitru]

I will do an 8 man example to show it better, using DPS values based on Darklight + Relic.

And as soon as you try to anything even remotely difficult, like Coil or Titan, the STR stacking WAR tank dies to a single burst.

*All* of your math is predicated upon the idea that a WAR is *supposed* to be stacking so much STR and damage gear that, with Defiance, it *matches* a PLD. Any attack or situation that pulls a PLD down to 20% hp is going to simply *kill* your WAR. It doesn't matter *how* good your healers are, there is *still* a delay between the tank taking damage and getting it healed back up, especially since you're assuming that healers are stance dancing to throw out some damage.

A tank *requires* the hp that comes with stacking so much VIT in order to survive the bursts in endgame content. You can swap out your jewelry for i70 crafted because it's shorting you only 25 VIT, but as soon as you sacrifice so much VIT that you only *match* a PLD, you're dead.

[Kitru]

How is a healer only doing 25 less DPS than a dedicated DPS class? That doesn't add up.

None of his math does. It's been pointed out multiple times that his screwy composition is fundamentally flawed but he just *refuses* to give up and admit that he's been acting like an idiot this entire time.

[Judge_Xero]

None of his math does. It's been pointed out multiple times that his screwy composition is fundamentally flawed but he just *refuses* to give up and admit that he's been acting like an idiot this entire time.

Hey, now what's the point in Theorycrafting if no one critics it? I was actually hoping for GameMako since they are much more polite.

In current endgame gear, with VIT food a Warrior can have ~8k HP in a party and still keep 190 DPS. With 3 healers, the heals will be coming in ~33% faster than with 2 healers. So as long as the Warrior doesn't get 1 shotted it's HP will stay pretty consistent.

How is a healer only doing 25 less DPS than a dedicated DPS class? That doesn't add up.

To simplify things, I went with 200 DPS. You may have a Black Mage at 230, you might see a Dragoon at 185 etc. Healers in Cleric Stance can actually put out some decent damage. There's even some controversy on how close Scholar is to Summoner. Summoner is better of course, but people are upset at how close a healing class can get.

[Exstal]

190 DPS? I don't even remotely believe that.

[ZDamned]

190 DPS? I don't even remotely believe that.

Unless your in gear that is even better than mine... I don't see this as remotely possible either, on anything other than a training Dummy.

EVEN THEN, I can't break 200 sustained DPS in my Strength gear in Defiance without unchained.

This begs the question Judge_Xero, What gear is this warrior tanking in with which you still need to run Coil?

[Leiron]

Warrior DPS = PLD DPS in Sword Oath - the extra Potency on PLD AA accounts for quite a bit on DPS. Switching both to Tank Stances, Warrior does ~20% more damage than Paladin in all DPS gear.

That makes no sense.
If Warrior DPS is equal to PLD DPS in sword oath, and Warrior DPS suffers a 25% damage debuff compared to 20% Paladin debuff, they would still be doing the same damage.
The logic makes no sense.

I should have been more specific. It was STR War vs VIT Pld.

You just confounded your argument.

While it doesn't equate to Paladin's eHP value, as long as the Warrior doesn't get 1 shotted, then that alone will be equal to PLD CD suite.

I don't see why anyone should listen to what you say regarding PLD vs WAR.
Its so far off its not even funny.

[Judge_Xero]

190 DPS? I don't even remotely believe that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ank-DPS-Thread

It can do a lot of damage. Although the testing was done against training dummies, Warrior doesn't require any special movement for combos. With 400 STR and Bravura, I averaged ~170 DPS over 10 minutes.

Unless your in gear that is even better than mine... I don't see this as remotely possible either, on anything other than a training Dummy.

EVEN THEN, I can't break 200 sustained DPS in my Strength gear in Defiance without unchained.

You should try again using all your cooldowns. Even @ 5 minutes you should be over 210 DPS.

That makes no sense.
If Warrior DPS is equal to PLD DPS in sword oath, and Warrior DPS suffers a 25% damage debuff compared to 20% Paladin debuff, they would still be doing the same damage.
The logic makes no sense.

From Sword Oath to Shield Oath Paladin looses, 50 Potency per AA and 20% Damage. AA is ~35-40% of a Paladin DPS in Sword Oath. In Shield Oath it drops to about 20-25% of total DPS. So Paladin is loosing about 15% of it's DPS right off the top.
Warrior gets access to more powerful skills in Defiance which brings it's average Potency per Skill up.
There is your damage difference.

[Giantbane]

*** PLD will receive 120% Healing in Shield Oath.

Not quite. PLD require 20% less healing due to Shield Oath because they take 20% less damage. But this isn't what you're saying. For a fair comparison, you need the inverse of this. How much more effective HP does the PLD have because he is taking 20% less damage, and how much more effective healing is the PLD receiving?

1.0 / 0.8 = 1.25

PLD has 125% total effective HP and receives 125% effective healing due to shield oath

That makes no sense.
If Warrior DPS is equal to PLD DPS in sword oath, and Warrior DPS suffers a 25% damage debuff compared to 20% Paladin debuff, they would still be doing the same damage.
The logic makes no sense.

WAR should be doing more in tank stance for 2 reasons.

1) the PLD suffers more than the WAR when switching stances, the PLD not only loses the 20% due to Shield Oath, he's also losing something like the 16%? (no idea, i think kitru had it around this during one of his/her math fests) from the loss of Sword Oath (<---- EDIT, clarified that the additional 16%? was from loss of Sword Oath).

2) Defiance isn't exactly a straight 25% penalty either. Defiance also brings 10% boosted crit with full wrath. This almost makes up for the 5% base difference between defiance and shield oath by itself. However, defiance also allows the use of inner beast (a solid dps move with no penalty when used with infuriate), and unchained (which can be stacked with berserk & Inner Release for some excellent burst).

So in ideal conditions the WAR should be pulling ahead while tanking.

[Exstal]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ank-DPS-Thread

It can do a lot of damage. Although the testing was done against training dummies, Warrior doesn't require any special movement for combos. With 400 STR and Bravura, I averaged ~170 DPS over 10 minutes.
.

It can't be taken seriously because it's unrealistic for tanking purposes.

No Warrior is going to fight without Defiance and full STR and still be tanking. It simply won't happen. So that leaves you at 139 DPS VIT Warrior vs 120 DPS VIT PLD. Changing to full STR means nothing really, you may do some more DPS but forces healers to heal more often than normal.

In response to your DPS baseline of 200, you failed to see that Warrior isn't going to be doing 170. That's too close to the DPS of true DPS classes' base of 200. Healer isn't even close to DPS class either. I'd say it's barely above 50% of a geared and experienced DPS. Whereas Warrior / Paladin is below 50%.