So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

[Giantbane]

You still compromise party DPS because healer with Warrior's DPS increase is weaker than 1 more DPS.

I believe the idea is that with 3 healers they could be stance swapping to add dots/extra dps when needed. The WAR doesn't require a whole additional healers worth of attention over the PLD. Alternatively, maybe a BLM or SMN could throw some cures/physicks on the WAR during damage spikes and return to dps after? Although they don't have a healer stance so I can't imagine that's going to do a whole lot unless they're using gear with both mnd & int on it.

I don't think it's going to balance out, but it has *some* merit, at least.

[Leiron]

WAR should be doing more in tank stance for 2 reasons.

2) Defiance isn't exactly a straight 25% penalty either. Defiance also brings 10% boosted crit with full wrath. This almost makes up for the 5% base difference between defiance and shield oath by itself. However, defiance also allows the use of inner beast (a solid dps move with no penalty when used with infuriate), and unchained (which can be stacked with berserk & Inner Release for some excellent burst).

Its a 33% damage loss for using defiance.
Its 25% for a Paladin.
The 10% crit +maim+SE just barely overcome the debuff.

So in ideal conditions the WAR should be pulling ahead while tanking.

Barely.
its a very small amount.

[Giantbane]

Its a 33% damage loss for using defiance.
Its 25% for a Paladin.

33% for using defiance? 25% for Paladin?

How do you figure?

[Babylyn90]

33% for using defiance? 25% for Paladin?

How do you figure?

Look up the abilities and read the tooltips:

Defiance: Increases maximum HP by 25% and increases enmity, while lowering damage dealt by 30%.
Shield Oath: Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity, while lowering damage dealt by 20%.

So for a class that should be self-healing through damage, it takes a bigger hit through it's def stance, plus

The 10% crit +maim+SE just barely overcome the debuff.
Barely.
its a very small amount.

Personally, I find it awkward that WAR's second cross-class is MNK, I never really see anybody talking about using it's abilities. I thought LNC (Keen Flurry, Life Surge, Invigorate, Blood4Blood) would be more appropriate (and for a while I thought this was its cross-class- seemed logical).

[Dlewis1986]

yah lnc does seem to be more apropriate but with the dps of some of it's ataccs whooooo wee would war be opish

[Leiron]

33% for using defiance? 25% for Paladin?

How do you figure?

Because increasing your damage by 25% =/= lowering your damage by 25%.

If they were the same, increasing your damage by 25% would nullify it, that is not the case.
To nullify it, you need 33% more damage.

Its the same reason why Shield Oath gives equivalent eHP to Defiance.

20% less damage taken = increasing your hp by 25%

Edit: Babylyn: Its a 25% damage debuff.

For a Paladin, they suffer an overall damage loss of 25% because its 20%damage debuff.

Do the math.
Lowering your damage by 25% means your damage is down by a 1/3rd of its original value.

[Paikis]

Bro, do you even maths?

[Maelwys]

I don't know what the reason is, but every parse I've ever seen with 1 WAR and 1 PLD has had the WAR a good 20% more damage in front of the PLD.

When the maths says one thing, and the tests say something else, I start thinking maybe there's something the maths hasn't accounted for.

One reason might be WAR's damage resistance debuff.

Most impartial "same-gear/stats" parses I've seen have been a bit iffy on ability rotations... and I'm really not sure why, because PLD's rotation is ridiculously easy: Spam RoH combo, use SW and CoS and FoF on cooldown. Shield Swipe and Mercy Stoke if they pop up. [Optional: Fracture after it wears and you're not mid-combo - IIRC it's a very slight gain in PLD DPS. Usage will depend on TP level: if you're likely to bottom out, don't use it]. Job Done.

If you pick Random Tanks in game (not purposely equally geared/stat'ed) and ask them what their DPS is like, it's another matter...

Firstly, in game more WARs tend to have +Str (via gear and/or point distribution) than PLDs - because of the mob "Must increase Self-Heals" mentality. The flip side is that PLDs tend to have more +Vit for the same reason, so they're generally seen as a lot tougher than WARs before you even factor in cooldowns. If you pick a random WAR and a random PLD, then stick both in i90 Allagan armor and melded Gryphonskin accessories... then chances are they'd be a LOT closer in both damage and survivability.

Secondly, on a lot of endgame content PLDs tend to use "Circle of Scorn" pretty much on Cooldown, but save "Spirits Within" to use situationally. This is intentional - Silence diminishing returns is a [Censored], which means you have to be rather careful with SW usage on the likes of the later half of AK (Succubus) and certain Coil Turns...

[symba]

The only reason warriors seem to have higher dps is because they have a better dps rotation they can use that won't take aggro/threat. Which in reality makes them a lot more practical for DPSing on any encounter. HS>MAIM>SE is 203.33 Potency/GCD (plus it comes with a 20% damage buff & 10% slashing resist) and 66.67 TP/GCD. Paladins have FB>RB which is 190 Potency/GCD and 75 TP/GCD.

[Maelwys]

The only reason warriors seem to have higher dps is because they have a better dps rotation they can use that won't take aggro/threat. Which in reality makes them a lot more practical for DPSing on any encounter. HS>MAIM>SE is 203.33 Potency/GCD (plus it comes with a 20% damage buff & 10% slashing resist) and 66.67 TP/GCD. Paladins have FB>RB which is 190 Potency/GCD and 75 TP/GCD.

Again, CoS and SW are being left out...

(PLD can weave in RoH as long as you monitor your hate levels and only switch back to Riot Blade if you start being in danger of pulling threat off the "other" Tank - you generally want to be #2 on the hate list anyway!!)