Real class balance feedback please

[EasymodeX]

My own experience, however, is that in turn 4 I was doing around 280 in all darklight except for pants and belt (they were AK) and relic (no +1 since all myth goes to my monk).
I also had a cheap HQ zircon ring (bite me).
Then I replaced the ring with a ilvl90 from turn 1.
Next time in turn 4, I was doing 330-350 consistently.

Turn 4 DPS numbers are highly variable depending on how long you spend in each phase, RNG crits, fight approach, and other things. Our BLM has varied up to 50 DPS on a Turn 4 parse while he basically did the same thing both times (I think he misfired like 1 Flare on the low parse though, but 1 Flare does not make a 50 DPS difference). In addition, the way the damage output is done in Turn 4 leads to a situation where the performance of other classes will directly impact affect how long the BLM has on each phase.

As a simple example, if a BLM has a lower parse, it could be because the other classes did more AOE damage during phase 1/4, and have literally nothing to do with the BLM's performance themselves. Like all of a sudden the Dragoon remembered how to play their class and hit a BFB'd DFD during P1/4. With two button presses of another class, the BLM could lose 15-20 DPS. Or hey, the Bard remembered to use BV on their FR (or remembered to use FR at all instead of mana/TP?). Boom, 5-10% total DPS gain.

Personally, I virtually ignore T4 parses for any reliable data unless you're consistently getting the same result over like 10-20 attempts after your group has stabilized the overall fight pattern. Even then, I would ignore DPS numbers by "same class in different groups" unless they have the same comp and use the same fight pattern (kill order, etc) ... which doesn't happen.

For example, some groups could have the BLM kite the soldier in P5 or P6. This is a DPS loss for the BLM. A group could have the mages in P6 attack the Dread until the Knights are dead, then AOE the Soldiers + Spiders. This would inflate BLM DPS. Shrug.

Edit: T2 is a bit of a mess since different targets will have different damage resistances from the mechanics. T1 is the most stable ST DPS check, unless you're cool enough to deep dive into parses and check DPS against individual mobs like each miniADS separately, etc.

[Allyrion]

Snip

You're right for the most part. I don't have a huge sample size to justify the disparity.
It's the same group and same strategy though. However, people's damage varies and there could have been more requiem after I got the ring anyway.

It's just sort of weird that with the same group and strat, with only a ring upgrade - I went from always being in the 200's to always in the 300's.
Again, that's probably just because of how aoe is in this game.

I don't think SE's balance is bad. I'm actually impressed with it for a launch.
I wouldn't be surprised though, if BLMs did have a slightly better scaling that becomes more apparent in full ilvl 90s.

[Nuffy]

Hey guys, average damage on a random attack is really meaningful to a damage per second discussion.



You must raid with some really bad #everyotherDPSinthegame.

Our SMN tops every ST chart on every fight, and our DPS comp is solid so it's not really anything but the class.

Not really blowing anyone out of the water, but has a noticeable step up on the rest of the group.

Well you haven't downed T5 yet so I really don't take your opinion that seriously. Its obvious that you don't play with anybody worth noting since the boss isn't dead yet so how could I possibly take your word?

You gotta take a break from forum trolling buddy.

[pandabearcat]

I was thinking about all these discussions this morning, and was wondering to myself, "why does anyone care? These people are maybe some of the best players playing, many have killed T5, why do they care?"

So I came up with a few answers.

1. They're secretly insecure. Thats kinda the copout though, so lets ignore this one. But if you get angry about this, imma put you in this group. Its also the catchall =D
2. They care so much about their personal dps because they want to be the best they can be. Thats pretty noble in a way, but then I want to ask, say your class is the lowest (or the highest) dps. Why does it matter? If you are doing as well as your class can possibly do, noone is going to fault you. Maybe for a certain fight your FC won't bring you. But that doesn't matter right, you want whats best for your FC. Or maybe you're afraid they will cut you. See point #1.
3. They want to know the best class for a fight because they want to be the best/most wanted/etc. Thats a decent reason, but its pretty late in this patch already. You've accomplished all you can do (or are on your way to). As far as I know no classes are being cut, but some are more desireable than others. Again, see #1.
4. They're worried that certain classes are incredibly unbalanced compared to the others. This is largely untrue, with the exception for BLM because that class is so broken, but not in ways of DPS. Until SE acknowledges they screwed up with infinite resource, I refuse to back down on this.
5. They just like to be right/argue. I fall under this category =D

[Zer0mr]

4. They're worried that certain classes are incredibly unbalanced compared to the others. This is largely untrue, with the exception for BLM because that class is so broken, but not in ways of DPS. Until SE acknowledges they screwed up with infinite resource, I refuse to back down on this.

Ummm.....Last time I checked, you could have full mana and do 0 DPS. I don't really see this as a kind of "broken" behavior as you might make it seem like.

[EasymodeX]

Ummm.....Last time I checked, you could have full mana and do 0 DPS. I don't really see this as a kind of "broken" behavior as you might make it seem like.

Different players check different sources. Last time I checked with my sources, bad players still infest this game and make dumbass arguments about doing 0 DPS with full mana.

The other players who aren't delusional realize that an infinite resource pool for one class and no other class leads to overall game design issues and constraints in the long haul, even if the issues are not seen in big ways with present content.

[Genesiser]

I was thinking about all these discussions this morning, and was wondering to myself, "why does anyone care? These people are maybe some of the best players playing, many have killed T5, why do they care?"

So I came up with a few answers.

1. They care so much about their personal dps because they want to be the best they can be. Thats pretty noble in a way, but then I want to ask, say your class is the lowest (or the highest) dps. Why does it matter? If you are doing as well as your class can possibly do, noone is going to fault you.

That point is why that one website worldoflogs.com for WoW was so great. You parse your dmg, upload it to a site, and you can rank yourself vs people of the same class/spec.

One thing I'd like to point out about one class being inherently weaker than another... The top damage a class can do is based on being the best player being able to play perfectly. The fact of the matter is very few people play at that level and just because you play a class that is "weaker" than another class, you can still easily outdamage a large majority of people playing the "stronger" class. So basically, choose the class you like to play and learn to be the best you can be with it and you will most likely out damage any class out there. In wow I was an enh shaman and that was middle of the road dps according to charts and theory crafting. However, I had gotten to the point where I was out damaging most people of any given class even if their gear was 30 IL higher than me. I'm sure given enough practice, the same can be done in this game.

Now as for why I enjoy being able to do that (to answer your question), I take a little pride in how I play my character. I know it's odd to see someone say they take pride in a video game, but like many things in my life, when I do something I try to be the best at it. So when I play dps in an mmorpg, I try to be the best I can be. Also, I've learned that if you yourself are really good and you are out damaging people in your group, especially if it's a set group playing with people you play with all the time, then the other dps get inspired and try to play better so they can top your damage. During firelands I remember this hunter in my raid group in wow would only do 15k dps. I joined the group and played with the group for a while and he saw me always sitting at 28-35k in lesser gear than him. It inspired him to learn how to play his class and after a few weeks his dps jumped up to an average of 25-28k. Another good thing about being really good at dps is it sort of becomes a game within the dps players of the group - when you have really good dps, the dps try to out dps the other guys while staying alive. It in turn makes raiding more entertaining when you are constantly fighting for that top spot so you can have bragging rights for that night.

[PessimiStick]

In wow I was an enh shaman and that was middle of the road dps according to charts and theory crafting. However, I had gotten to the point where I was out damaging most people of any given class even if their gear was 30 IL higher than me. I'm sure given enough practice, the same can be done in this game.

That's because you were playing with people that sucked at the game. When you play with people who are all skilled, you are limited by how well your class performs. I used to run the PvP raid bosses in WoW while doing really ridiculous things like using white vendor weapons. I still outdamaged a ton of people in the raid, even though they should have been crushing me. That doesn't mean vendor weapons are ok, it just means the other people in the group were awful.

[EasymodeX]

My average autoattack is 200. No wonder BLMs do so much more DPS. Their Fire does more damage than my autoattack! I have seen the light!

[NeoAmon]

My average autoattack is 200. No wonder BLMs do so much more DPS. Their Fire does more damage than my autoattack! I have seen the light!

Now you are just spamming junk without adding anything to the discussion.