Letter from the Producer LIVE Part X: Will the netcode issue be honestly addressed?

[Astarica]

I thought about the hacking issue some more, and you can pretty much foolproof this even if you're dealing with an ability with a wide range of damage. Let's say WotL does 1 to 9999 damage (random), what the server can do is simply compute the result of WotL as it's casting the spell, so as your client gets WotL rendered on your screen, the server also tells you 'Psst, in case you suck at dodging I've already determined WotL will do 9999 damage to you'. This means the client now knows for sure exactly what damage to display in the event of failure and it can be sure this number is correct, because that's what the server told it to be. You can't change this number with hacks because the server already knows what the damage ought to be! Not counting damage reducing effects, any number other than 9999 will immediately tip off the server that you're hacking your response.

So my conclusion is that using this model to stop hacks is needlessly paranoid. And if there are supposed to be other advantages for using FF14's model over the conventional one, I sure can't find any.

[Astarica]

For the issue of 'your screen is in the past', that's true in all online games in general. Certainly your screen can never be more up to date than 1/2 the roundtrip latency time regarding any entity other than yourself. What's important is that all the stuff regarding you "appears" to be in real time. If I stand in an instant kill AE, I do expect to die instantly when the castbar finishes if I didn't move out of it. Let's say every action in the MMORPG world that doesn't involve me is actually lagged 10 seconds. There's really no fundamental impact to my enjoyment of the game as long as everything appears to be current when I am involved. If you ever look at how other people act on your screen in FF14, you'll always see people appear to stand in AEs and then magically glide across the screen to avoid it. And for the most part, you shouldn't care what kind of whacked reality other people on your screen appears to be in as long as your reality is working.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

So my conclusion is that using this model to stop hacks is needlessly paranoid. And if there are supposed to be other advantages for using FF14's model over the conventional one, I sure can't find any.

I can't give a definitive comment on the technical side, however what I know is that this game was more hacked so far than any other MMORPG I've played in the last 10 years, including a few crappy F2P's made by small companies.

I mean, just the whole '380 billion gils deleted from people's accounts' speaks for itself—without so much as an apology by the way, several server-first to achieve miner 50 and stuff like that… talk about an awful way of treating your most hardcore and dedicated customers… And that japanese guy who had 2 billion gils and all the pets, when some are not even accessible in-game yet… SQL requests were accepted by the database without any check whatsoever (I really hope they fixed that since, but it went on for a month after release at least)… And the teleport hacks which are still happening with RMT's bots… yeah, SE's security? 'LOL'.

They really sacrificed gameplay quality and responsiveness for this kind of security? That's a flat out fail, there's just no other way to express it.

In theory server live-state might be better for security, but in ARR it's like they closed the door a la Fort Knox while leaving the window just next to it wide open.

[Astarica]

I can't give a definitive comment on the technical side, however what I know is that this game was more hacked so far than any other MMORPG I've played in the last 10 years, including a few crappy F2P's made by small companies.

Well teleport is basically impossible to stop because the server views all player movement as teleportation. The other stuff seems to be serious exploits, but not actually hacking, and that also highlights the fact that most serious problems with security are exploits, not hacks. You'll hear far more issues that are equivalent of just someone logging in as admin/admin, as opposed to someone doing some crazy hax0r skills to somehow get past all your layers of security. I remember reading one of the hacks that lets you login as anybody in RIFT because they've some backdoor login protocol, and why would you even build a backdoor login protocol on the client in the first place? Why would anyone running a client version of any MMORPG even need the ability to log into anyone else's account without a password? Yet it's these dumb decisions that are usually the biggest security threats, not because your encryptation wasn't strong enough.

[Arcari]

Less than 3 days, guys.

Who thinks we'll hear so much as a word about the netcode issues?

Just out of polite curiosity...what exactly do you want to hear from them? Do you want them to just admit that they don't know wtf? If they just confess that, won't you and everyone else who considers this the public issue #1 quit on the spot? Also, were you the one who made that super-detailed topic about why this issue can't be fixed or something? So if the devs come out saying "hey we can fix it!" wouldn't you perceive that as flat out lies? I'm just honestly wondering how you want this to proceed.

Also, a hypothetical question since I'm bored: If SE was to come out and say "hey we acknowledge this problem, we're going to try to fix it, but since this is deeply routed in the source code, we need to shut the game down for a month or two," how many of you would honestly be willing to wait that long?

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

Just out of polite curiosity...what exactly do you want to hear from them?

Here's the story.
Basically, if you read my OP, this thread started as an open letter to emphasise the importance of the issue, it was a plea. These two threads are the raw player feedback I wanted to capitalise upon in order to try and get SE's attention, by showing respect but determination in my open letter:
Thread: Sorry SE, but endgame won't work if you don't fix something.
→ Early feedback
Thread: .3 Second Positional Update Delay (Requesting Dev Response)
→ More specific feedback

This thread of mine, which was created 10 days before the "Letter from the Producer LIVE Part X" was meant to try and get SE to answer during that specific event (it's due for next friday). As I said in the OP, I didn't want to divert attention from these existing topics, which is why I keep referencing them all the time, and why this thread of mine is meant to die after this Letter from the Producer. It's just a basic attempt at gathering people and try to make SE react, do or say something.

However… then came Sinth's post. He posted here then made a thread of his own to further expose his take on this.
Thread: Why the netcode issue exists, and why it cannot be fixed.
→ Technical considerations

That's when we learned that clearly, the issue was probably much deeper than we thought.

Which prompted this realisation, at least as far as I'm concerned (post #77):

My hopes hit a low as well after understanding the nub of the issue thanks to Sinth's explanation. As someone said in his thread, SE's facing a dilemma where both ways are bad PR: either admit they failed to take into account the huge discrepancy between Japan's outstanding connections and the rest of the world which is clearly not as well connected, and much more distant from the datacenters; or maintain the silent treatment and face some kind of exodus as people become first aware, then jaded from vainly trying to avoid events that already happened when their screens display them…
Read more of my blabla about how I would personally try to proceed, from what little I know about this situation (not an insider at SE, obviously)

Which means I totally understand the mess they might be in, and the fact it's highly unlikely we get an answer anytime soon.

For what it's worth (post #82):

[…] SE's not particularly known to be quick at responding to feedback or criticism, especially when it's founded on very real considerations; and somehow I can't help but think it has to do with this company's internal management (culture, practice, higher-ups mentality). Whatever Yoshi-P thinks about it, I'm not sure his hands (or rather, mouth) are free in this matter.

Which is why I'm not quite sure we'll hear anything before some time, probably not in 2013, possibly not before they have a working solution already well advanced in the pipes. If Sinth's estimations are correct, that might not be late into 2014, provided they start working on it right now (or already are).

So, how do I want this to proceed?
Well it's not really my place to say, since I don't speak for the community, I simply try to speak to the best of my ability to further this cause but… yeah, well, as I said things may be worse than we thought.

If Sinth was wrong, entirely or partially, and SE could actually fix this is in a timely manner… I would be nothing but happy. Overjoyed. Ecstatic. (no offense dear Sinth, but I think you wish you were wrong too given the situation ^^). But alas, I don't really think they can, or they would have by now. At best, should they shove the millions and the man-hours, maybe for 3.0. Maybe never. I don't know. I wish I knew (hence this thread continues, so far).

I wish they told us:
"Guys we are so sorry about this issue, we know it's problematic for a lot of you. We sincerely apologise for taking so much time to answer, blablabla."
That would be a great first step in regaining trust. Owning the mistake, which a lot of us would understand, I suppose. Would these words, just the words, make us stay? Probably not all of us who are feeling this netcode issue as game-breaking, but probably more than if they said nothing, and above all it would make us consider SE in a different light—a more positive light. I would consider FFXV for instance, right now as we speak my interest couldn't be much lower (and I'm an old FF fan).
But that would still be a blow (again nothing knew, it is already one as we speak), so yeah it would need to be followed by substantial words like:
"But we have this super-plan, and we're going to turn the tables and do this, and this, and that, and it's going to be great, please look forward to it."
I would actually look forward to that.

I could give you my ideal "plan" as a PR-guy (I was actually thinking in my shower today how I'd deal with this if I were them lol) but I'm not sure that's what you want to hear, since it would be filled with conjectures (don't have the numbers etc), so we should probably wait for SE to say something.

All I know is that there's almost always a way to turn a mistake into an opportunity, and Square does have a strong backbone, so they could definitely do something should they really wish to. Maybe that would hurt profits for a while, I suppose, but what's a Q or two without profits so long as you don't sustain losses, and you gain so much trust and respect from your fans, your players, your customers? In the long run this is an event that will stick, and particularly since this is a MMORPG, so I'd wager there is as much to lose as there is to win, should they adopt the wrong or the right stance about this. I see a few ways for the high road. I hope they can too.

(Again, they're in a bad situation but many companies have been there, and have recovered only to shine more. And I'm not talking about spinning this with words, I mean actual, substantial work and 'kindness' towards your customers to make up for your mistakes. Kinda like they already did for ARR actually. Honestly, thinking of all that work, I do feel for them, because I'm sure they meant well, they just… screwed up. Which happens. Probably too often these days at SE, but still. They do show good will.)

Not saying anything however would clearly mean, to me, in corporate-language, that the issue isn't going away before late into 2014, if ever. It would essentially confirm our biggest fears. And I hate that notion. But that's reality for us.

As for waiting, personally I don't mind at all. No MMO announced for 2014 interests me much, and anyhow as a old FF fan I could wait 6 months. Even a year. I really don't mind. You know, you don't follow a franchise for 20 years to refuse a few months wait in order to get the next great instalment. I've actually already stated somewhere in these forums that I would have been fine with waiting 6 months more for the game to be released with more content, so… personally I'd much prefer a great product later than a broken one now.

Does that answer your question? (sorry if I was too long. I do that ^^; )

[Reinheart]

Just out of polite curiosity...what exactly do you want to hear from them? Do you want them to just admit that they don't know wtf? If they just confess that, won't you and everyone else who considers this the public issue #1 quit on the spot? Also, were you the one who made that super-detailed topic about why this issue can't be fixed or something? So if the devs come out saying "hey we can fix it!" wouldn't you perceive that as flat out lies? I'm just honestly wondering how you want this to proceed.

Also, a hypothetical question since I'm bored: If SE was to come out and say "hey we acknowledge this problem, we're going to try to fix it, but since this is deeply routed in the source code, we need to shut the game down for a month or two," how many of you would honestly be willing to wait that long?

Well technically we waited since 1.0... 1.0 beta for me... lol so month/two wouldn't hurt lol, but I know that's not realistic at this point.

[Sunarie]

*snip*

Honestly, just acknowledging it's an issue and then either going "we are investigating the cause", "we are working on the fix but it will take some time", or "we do not plan to address it". Any of those would work for me.

As to how long I'm willing to wait (or how long until I quit), that's not really going to be determined by their answer. My patience runs out when either frustration outweighs my fun, or enough of my friends migrate to a new game that I go off and play with them. What it will determine is whether I ever look back on the game or not. If there's hope of it being fixed, I'll check back in to see if that fix has taken place. It's not a lot, I know.. but customer service, which is what that is, does go a long way in keeping customer's long term. I would venture a guess that people would be more willing to check back if they knew for sure that SE at least acknowledged it was something they needed to look into/fix.

[Arcari]

Well technically we waited since 1.0... 1.0 beta for me... lol so month/two wouldn't hurt lol, but I know that's not realistic at this point.

Indeed lol. Hey, did you play FFXI around the time Japan had that terrible earthquake/tsunami/nuclear disaster, and SE had to shut the game down for what was it...a week? Two weeks? And people lost their goddamned minds over it. Keep in mind, that was over a national disaster, where you would think people would be a tad more understanding, but nope. So I could just imagine people being all like "wtf it'll take them that long to fix this issue, screw this I quit" if that hypothetical situation did happen. XD

Honestly, just acknowledging it's an issue and then either going "we are investigating the cause", "we are working on the fix but it will take some time", or "we do not plan to address it". Any of those would work for me.

As to how long I'm willing to wait (or how long until I quit), that's not really going to be determined by their answer. My patience runs out when either frustration outweighs my fun, or enough of my friends migrate to a new game that I go off and play with them. What it will determine is whether I ever look back on the game or not. If there's hope of it being fixed, I'll check back in to see if that fix has taken place. It's not a lot, I know.. but customer service, which is what that is, does go a long way in keeping customer's long term. I would venture a guess that people would be more willing to check back if they knew for sure that SE at least acknowledged it was something they needed to look into/fix.

See, the bolded part is the forbidden reply that SE cannot say at all costs. I'm not saying you would immediately run off (you seem like a lady of your word for sure), but a quick look around this forum tells me that "we do not have plans to address it" will be the death sentence for a lot of players. I'm pretty sure SE doesn't want to lose their money like that lol. But those first two answers don't seem so appealing either... it could easily just be perceived as "PR crap" like someone around here so kindly put it. I consider myself one of the most optimistic people in the world and even I would have a hard time believing whatever SE had to say about the issue. I don't know, it's kinda sad to think about it that way.

[Sunarie]

See, the bolded part is the forbidden reply that SE cannot say at all costs. I'm not saying you would immediately run off (you seem like a lady of your word for sure), but a quick look around this forum tells me that "we do not have plans to address it" will be the death sentence for a lot of players. I'm pretty sure SE doesn't want to lose their money like that lol. But those first two answers don't seem so appealing either... it could easily just be perceived as "PR crap" like someone around here so kindly put it. I consider myself one of the most optimistic people in the world and even I would have a hard time believing whatever SE had to say about the issue. I don't know, it's kinda sad to think about it that way.

Yeah, I understand that part of it.. I just think saying something (even if it is just PR crap) would be better than nothing. I mean.. that's what the PR department is there for right? I also think if they don't plan on addressing it then it will end up damaging their reputation more for future titles if they keep quiet and pretend it doesn't exist. There have been lots of MMOs, or products, with botched releases that retain customers by how they react to them. As silly as it is to talk about trust between a company and a customer, that bit is important. Customers need to trust that the company will address concerns, especially major concerns. When a company breaks that trust, as SE is doing by remaining utterly silent on the matter, it takes considerably more effort to regain that customer after they leave.

I should probably state that I use to work as a customer service rep for Amazon. So my expectations on customer service, and establishing trust with your customer are exceedingly high.