DPS Rankings

[Zigkid3]

Yes monk abilities can still work regardless of positioning, but it doesn't mean you should be ignoring it. All of our damage abilities except for DoTs require positioning to be effective. If you can't position correctly or the boss decides to turn it will shaft your MNK dps like a mofo. on top of the demand for proper positioning if you want to do competitive dps, mnk also has to worry about movement much more than ranged as well as dodging boss mechanics, and if you want to get real technical depending on if you know the fight well enough for certain scenarios like needing a silence from Arm of the destoryer (though usually monks aren't on silence duty) or rockbreaker for adds that can require some stance positioning as well.

If a monk just sits on flank all day, they're bad, and their dps will not be anywhere as high as it should be. a monk needs to change their positioning based on the ability they are currently doing in their rotation. some require flank (DK, twin, snap), some require back (bootshine, impulse drive), on top of that our AoE's like rockbreaker and howling fist also requires positioning. if the boss just sits there then fine, but they don't a lot of times bosses turn around to do some ability or target someone, if you used your ability and then during the animation the boss turns, it's going to hurt your potential dps by a lot, sometimes you're about to use your ability and then just before you do the boss will turn and then you have to react quickly within your gcd to move to the new position to use your ability, and then move back cause the boss will turn back to where it originally was. then to top if off you're melee, if there's any movement on the boss, good luck hitting it on the move with the server positional lag it's hard to get an ability connect but still possible, and then on top of that being positioned to the boss correctly while on the move. (also if you need to catch up to the boss too sometimes you cant even shoulder tackle because of the 'minimum distance' requirement which can be really annoying, but the thing i just discribed is assuming you're running along with the boss). oh yeah and if you screw it up and can't hit the boss on the move, say good bye to your greased lightning 3 stacks to shaft your dps even more. then you have AoE's you have to worry about as well which not only requires you to move but it can also effect your dps much more than ranged.

Monk is a high risk, high reward class. if you're good at handling it then you'll do good dps. however if you suck at it (and a lot of people do) then your dps will be down the drain, that's way you see a bunch of baddies making threads complaining that monks are 'too weak' it's because those people can't handle the unforgiving positioning requirements. yes you can use your abilities still from another position, but if you do it will hurt you a lot.

[Ayvar]

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

[Blooregard]

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

..So goddamned true.

[Teeko]

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

I think they get mad because of your attitude rather than what you are saying. I couldn't care less if a dragoon thought my class was easy, especially since I stopped playing dragoon after getting BfB, but if you were being socially awkward and attempting to be borderline insulting, that is a bit different.

But hey, this is the internet and all...

[EasymodeX]

The penalty doesn't matter because you should never be failing anyway.

Positional failures are pretty inevitable with the delay in mob direction/position in the FF14 engine -- unless you can literally predict the action of the boss at all points in the fight a second in advance.

If that's the case, then I have no idea why you have any comment about Monk positional attacks.

That's not a pre-defined location. You can list out the X,Y coordinate for a monk during a fight. You can't for a BLM.

If you're trying to get picky, I can list at least 2 general coordinates for the Monk in a fight, since there are 2 flanks. There is also generally a good variation of positioning within those flanks. So no, you can't list out the X,Y coordinate for a Monk during the fight.

Listing out movement conditions is not the same as listing out where you need to be.

Oh, but it is. You simply perceive space and fight execution differently than I do.

The positions are demanded though.

They are demanded with more frequently but less magnitude.

Zzz.

To think of a bonus to damage when you're a damage class as anything less than a demand is wrong.

You're so hard.

But bosses do turn and move sometimes. If you aren't making millisecond decisions on how to adapt your rotation depending on what part you're on and which position is now closest while considering their turning, you're doing it wrong.

Those decisions are harder and more penalizing for a BLM or DRG.

"Your perspective is skewed" is really a cheap argument and should not be used in any logical debate. Perspective, by its nature, is subjective and there HAS to be skewed in some sense. There is no way you can tell yours is any less and therefore it's irrelevant.

? You said I was wrong. I say you are wrong. Hence I am completing the circle of your "cheap argument".

I was making a statement that your perspective is skewed from mine. Hence we have differing subjective views on the application of 'mobility' and 'positioning'.

Mobility is only about being able to move. It doesn't matter where you came from or where you went to. Only if there was a penalty for the movement itself.

Positioning is your spot. Mobility is the derivative or delta in your spot. As I said previously, mobility is dynamic positioning. Mobility is a subset of positioning -- e.g. changing your position.

Hence, both concepts are encapsulated by the term "positioning". You have a differing opinion where mobility is completely discrete from positioning. That seems to be half of your entire argument with my post -- your inability to accept another person's terminology.

Personally, IDGAF about your definition. I can argue the content of the argument without getting into needless semantics that you seem to be stuck on.

Basically having to be a certain place, which are only on mnk and drg abilities, are positional demands. They literally check where you are standing.

Standing in a laser to finish casting Fire literally checks where you are standing. Standing in line with other rDPS causing line attacks to impact multiple players checks where you are standing. Are you trying to cause your raid to lose DPS?

Monk positions(combo abilities) being less challenging is a whole different discussion from, say, monk gap closers or Fists of Winds.

Fixed.

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If a monk just sits on flank all day, they're bad, and their dps will not be anywhere as high as it should be.

Actually, a Monk who sits on the flank all day will net about 90-95% of the DPS of a Monk who doesn't suck. "Anywhere near as high" is a pretty extreme statement.

some require back (bootshine, impulse drive),

Impulse Drive is bad in general and only effective for very limited situations.

on top of that our AoE's like rockbreaker and howling fist also requires positioning.

Trivial. Blizzard 2 requires positioning. Doom spike and Dragonfire Dive require positioning. Hell, Flaming Arrow requires "positioning". Dis gaem haz pozishuning.

it's going to hurt your potential dps by a lot,

A lot. Right.

Lol.

and then move back cause the boss will turn back to where it originally was. then to top if off you're melee, if there's any movement on the boss, good luck hitting it on the move with the server positional lag it's hard to get an ability connect but still possible, and then on top of that being positioned to the boss correctly while on the move.

Trivial. Are you keyboard turning or on a PS3 pad? If so, please exit this discussion.

oh yeah and if you screw it up and can't hit the boss on the move, say good bye to your greased lightning 3 stacks to shaft your dps even more. then you have AoE's you have to worry about as well which not only requires you to move but it can also effect your dps much more than ranged.

The fact that you are complaining about this at all means you are bad. Srs. Especially as a Monk who can just hit Fist of the Winds if you have problems.

Monk is a high risk, high reward class.

Not really.

I spend literally half my mental attention playing my Monk compared to my Dragoon.

it's because those people can't handle the unforgiving positioning requirements.

The positioning requirements are extremely forgiving. To be honest, Twin Snakes should not apply the damage buff if your position is wrong. DK should not apply the blunt resist debuff if your position is wrong.

Make those changes and I'll agree that Monks have "meaningful" positioning demands.

If a monk just sits on flank all day, they're bad, and their dps will not be anywhere as high as it should be.

Actually, a Monk who sits on the flank all day will net about 90-95% of the DPS of a Monk who doesn't suck. "Anywhere near as high" is a pretty extreme statement.

some require back (bootshine, impulse drive),

Impulse Drive is bad in general and only effective for very limited situations.

on top of that our AoE's like rockbreaker and howling fist also requires positioning.

Trivial. Blizzard 2 requires positioning. Doom spike and Dragonfire Dive require positioning. Hell, Flaming Arrow requires "positioning". This gaem iz h4rd.

it's going to hurt your potential dps by a lot,

A lot. Right.

Lol.

and then move back cause the boss will turn back to where it originally was. then to top if off you're melee, if there's any movement on the boss, good luck hitting it on the move with the server positional lag it's hard to get an ability connect but still possible, and then on top of that being positioned to the boss correctly while on the move.

Trivial. Are you keyboard turning or on a PS3 pad? If so, please exit this discussion.

oh yeah and if you screw it up and can't hit the boss on the move, say good bye to your greased lightning 3 stacks to shaft your dps even more. then you have AoE's you have to worry about as well which not only requires you to move but it can also effect your dps much more than ranged.

The fact that you are complaining about this at all means you are bad. Srs. Especially as a Monk who can just hit the movespeed passive if you have problems.

Monk is a high risk, high reward class.

Not really.

I spend literally half my mental attention playing my Monk compared to my Dragoon.

it's because those people can't handle the unforgiving positioning requirements.

The positioning requirements are extremely forgiving. To be honest, Twin Snakes should not apply the damage buff if your position is wrong. DK should not apply the blunt resist debuff if your position is wrong.

Make those changes and I'll agree that Monks have "meaningful" positioning demands.

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

Evidently!

Maybe I should be like 'OMG MONK NEEDS TO POSITIONING ALL THE TIME'. It took me all of 2 AKs and a sprint through Ifrit and Garuda to figure out how to turn off my brain and sleepwalk the attack cycle. That's a steep learning curve!

[Allyrion]

Positional failures are pretty inevitable with the delay in mob direction/position in the FF14 engine -- unless you can literally predict the action of the boss at all points in the fight a second in advance.

If that's the case, then I have no idea why you have any comment about Monk positional attacks.

Because I'm not talking about it being difficult at all.
I'm saying it's pointless to talk about "positional demands" when this game has a mechanic that demands set positions.
That's it.

I did not call you wrong and you are overly defensive.
All I'm saying it that it's confusing to put monk positioning as low when it has the most position checks in the game.
I think the only reason you're stuck on it is because admitting monks have a lot of positional demands means they're harder or something.

But they're not and we can both agree on that.
I can agree monk difficulty is overrated. This has nothing to do with that.

Fixed.

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That was an example of a discussion to make monk positions more challenging. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

See above.

[Zigkid3]

I fail to see how a BLM is the most positional intensive as you claim when they're a ranged class over two melee classes, and then Dragoon more than monk when dragoons have like 2 positional things to worry about that they use every now and then over monk that has several positional abilities in their standard rotation.

[ZodiacSoldier]

This is how i normally deal with the positioning requirements of MNK and DRG, not to hard once you get use to it.

DRG - Heavy Thrust needs to be at Flank, Impulse Drive have to be from behind.
They only have 2 abilities that requires positioning so not to hard to forget. But generally I will be on the monsters flank and only move to that back to use impulse drive.

MNK - Bootshine and Truestrike needs to be from behind. Snap punch, Twin Snakes and Dragon Kick from the flank.
For MNKs I just always remember that Bootshine and Truestrikes need me to be behind, other times I will always be on the flank so its alot easier for me to remember.

[Zigkid3]

I'd say dragoons and monks are pretty close in terms of difficulty, and as Allyrion said, the difficulty is overrated. But monks have the most positional stuff in the game that they use constantly, dragoons have two, and BLM has like none and are ranged as opposed to drg and mnk which are both melee. so i have no idea how you came up with blm>drg>mnk in terms of positional demand.

[Tilgung]

Stuff.

You forget the part where MNK's continue changing form, and thus continuing their combo, regardless of position requirements being met. Some of your skills even still apply your buffs and debuffs regardless! You lose some damage, but the penalty isn't particularly large.

If a DRG misses positioning requirements, they wasted a GCD to basically do an auto attack without gaining any of the additional effects or allowing the combo to continue. And three of our abilities lock us in place after executing them. It's far more punishing to mess up on DRG than it is on MNK.

I've no experience with BLM so I can't comment on them.