DPS Rankings

[ZodiacSoldier]

3 groups every week for us using PLD/BRD for interrupts. Yeah, HV is missed sometimes, but that's just when someone messes up. You know if an AoE is cast you can run back in instantly even while animation is still going off, right? The AE's like repelling cannon and that star-shaped one don't make you run far, so literally it's 1-2 steps to get back in range. Not personally familiar with PS3 controls, but that sounds like an excuse. Up to your group whether you want to put up with it or not.

Yea i know normally I wont miss the interrupt after dodging an AOE, only happens when the boss is on the other tank and we run in opposite direction, doesn't happen too often like I said, maybe only once every ten runs. Also there were a few times where I miss then silence if ADS uses HV when i'm in the middle of using "Rage of Halone", I spam my silence hoping it will go off, but sadly its late sometimes.

[Allyrion]

Low positioning demands due to mechanics continuing to function at all positions.

I won't agree with this. Monk difficulty might be overrated but the positional requirements aren't low.
All attacks have a positional requirement even if it functions without it.
You should be doing all positions and at the highest level doing a standard rotation which includes Bootshine.

I'm not saying it's super hard to stay at a flank most of the time, but you've got a set place to be and you need to learn to stick to it like white on rice as much as you can.
And you've got to do that for every attack outside of dots and oGCD.

Every time you missed, you failed.
Every time you didn't Bootshine cause you couldn't predict it well enough, you could have been better.
To me, those are still position demands. Maybe we're defining it differently.
In that regard, there are literally more 'you have to be here' things for a monk.

NOTE:
I play on a BLM as well and the "position demands" are a lot.
Technically, you're only allowed to move on procs to be optimal.
However, the BLM is balanced around some movement interrupting you as monks are balanced around GL3 dropping occasionally.
A good BLM will move only during a proc (for a better position) or when they absolutely must.

Still, I put position demands in quotations because I think there's a difference between that and mobility.
I don't see the reason for putting them them as the same thing except to use it as a common denominator for all the classes, which is still misleading.

Position demands, to me at least, would mean you've got a predefined location.
Mobility would mean it's hard to move.

For my monk, my movements are predefined. I've got to be in a certain place at a certain time.
I would say its the class with the most positional demands cause most of their tooltips literally ask you to be somewhere.
My mobility isn't horrible though. I can sidestep a Titan plume without losing damage.

My BLM can't do that without losing damage, but I've got a lot more choice where to stand.
Fight to fight, there may be position demands that I work out with my raid but as a class I pretty much have none.

Might be semantics but your summary is misleading. Even for a summary.

[EasymodeX]

Doomspike is, overall, a very good AOE ability. Dragonfire Dive is a rather good AOE burst cooldown. The general pattern for a large AOE scenario is HT->ROT once, then Doomspike spam, while throwing in a DFD. Then continue to use Leg Sweep during Doomspike spam. Refresh HT as necessary (and follow it up with ROT).

On last week's Turn 4, I was able to nearly match the Summoner's total fight damage because I was significantly ahead of him on AOE (even though he destroyed everyone else on multi-target).

DRG single target DPS is pretty good, but weaker than MNK/SMN, on par with Bard and BLM. Bard's get +/- depending on whether they have a DRG supplying the pierce debuff.

DRG's actual utility comes in the form of burst damage during various mechanics. For example, even though a Monk is generally going to exceed a DRG's sustained DPS, a Dragoon is more effective to kill conflags on Twintania because they can time more oGCDs and burst damage for it.

[ZodiacSoldier]

I was wondering how fast do DRGs do WP speed runs, and what set up do you normally use. Since Doomspike eats so much TP, I would imagine that the DRG will be fairly TP starved. And since most groups prioritize BLMs in WP Speed Runs due to their AOE DPS, they can't take a BRD for TP song (since the 2nd DPS is DRG)

And what do you guys think is the most effective WP Speed run setup.

I normally prefer PLD, BLM, BRD, WHM

[EasymodeX]

I was wondering how fast do DRGs do WP speed runs,

DRGs do WP speed runs fine. A WP speed run virtually always needs a BLM though for the silence and AOE damage output. There are ways around this but it makes the run slightly more complex (e.g. using a Summoner for AOE bind instead, or using a WHM Holy for stun to lockout). However, if you can accept ~13-15m as a speed run, then a almost any DPS combination can work.

I've heard that a DRG + BLM can do it in 9 or 10m. Personally my group's only gone down to 12s or so, but we may try something different to drop it to 10. It's somewhat difficult doing certain CC combinations with a Warrior. No Hallowed Ground and needs to heal themselves via attacking.

Since Doomspike eats so much TP, I would imagine that the DRG will be fairly TP starved.

You need to manage it and become familiar with which pulls require a full TP dump and which don't. Generally speaking you will end up blowing all cooldowns + Invig on the first pull. In WP the DRG's main cooldowns are BFB, DFD, and Invigorate. Do not DFD or Invig on bosses. BFB can be used on bosses early but not late (so it's up for the trash after).

Every Invigorate cooldown is a "big" pull. Every DFD is reserved for a big pull. BFB can fluctuate.

And since most groups prioritize BLMs in WP Speed Runs due to their AOE DPS, they can't take a BRD for TP song (since the 2nd DPS is DRG)

Luckily DRGs do more AOE DPS than a Bard. A BLM actually takes a few seconds to get off their DPS, so you can split aggro with them if you're quick.

The hardest part of doing WP without a BRD is the Paladin's mana pool if you are using a Paladin. They have to adapt with specific pull methods to save flashes for AOE threat. It helps a lot if they have a +1.

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I'm not saying it's super hard to stay at a flank most of the time, but you've got a set place to be and you need to learn to stick to it like white on rice as much as you can.

Uh huh. That's the exact point: it's not super hard to sit your ass on the boss's flank for the majority of the fight and strafe their rear for a Bootshine every once in while.

In that regard, there are literally more 'you have to be here' things for a monk.

There are more positional checks for a Monk, but the penalty for poor positioning is much less. You do not actually "have to be here". You "should be here". "Have to" implies a more significant penalty -- Monks do not have this. Your perspective is skewed.

Position demands, to me at least, would mean you've got a predefined location.
Mobility would mean it's hard to move.

Um. My predefined location for a BLM is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic and (b) standing where they were standing a moment ago.

My predefined location for a MNK is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic but (b) also at the flank.

A BLM loses significantly more DPS in general for dealing with boss mechanics than a MNK. Hence, steeper penalties, even if a MNK's position is checked more frequently.

Might be semantics but your summary is misleading.

Or your perspective is skewed. I don't perceive any meaningful difference between "positioning" and "mobility". Mobility is dynamic positioning -- a subset of the concept of positioning.

They both center on the player being in the correct X,Y coordinate at the correct time. Melee in general have a malus re: mechanics, but melee also get a significant bonus for not having hardcasts.


At the end of the day this discussion is subjective. Some players have a harder time with positioning. Some players have a harder time with action sequence. I think my summary was objective enough between classes that players could make their own judgement.

Look at it this way:

If you run to the boss's side and then take your hands off of WASD for the rest of the fight, you'll still land 90% of your positional attacks. You won't lose GL. You'll get every Twin Snakes buff. You'll get every DK debuff. You'll get every DOT.

Zzzzz. So much for demanding positioning.

[Allyrion]

There are more positional checks for a Monk, but the penalty for poor positioning is much less. You do not actually "have to be here". You "should be here". "Have to" implies a more significant penalty -- Monks do not have this. Your perspective is skewed.

Positional checks are exactly what I mean.
The penalty doesn't matter because you should never be failing anyway.
There's more opportunity for monks to fail because there are simply more checks.

Um. My predefined location for a BLM is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic and (b) standing where they were standing a moment ago.

My predefined location for a MNK is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic but (b) also at the flank.

A BLM loses significantly more DPS in general for dealing with boss mechanics than a MNK. Hence, steeper penalties, even if a MNK's position is checked more frequently.

That's not a pre-defined location. You can list out the X,Y coordinate for a monk during a fight. You can't for a BLM.
Listing out movement conditions is not the same as listing out where you need to be.

At the end of the day this discussion is subjective. Some players have a harder time with positioning. Some players have a harder time with action sequence. I think my summary was objective enough between classes that players could make their own judgement.

Right. I said the positioning was easy enough. Who's talking about difficulty?
The positions are demanded though.
To think of a bonus to damage when you're a damage class as anything less than a demand is wrong.

Most of the time, it is quite easy as you say.
But bosses do turn and move sometimes. If you aren't making millisecond decisions on how to adapt your rotation depending on what part you're on and which position is now closest while considering their turning, you're doing it wrong.

All that said, it's still not very hard.
However again, difficulty doesn't matter. The position demands are there whether it's easy to keep them or not.

Or your perspective is skewed. I don't perceive any meaningful difference between "positioning" and "mobility". Mobility is dynamic positioning -- a subset of the concept of positioning.

"Your perspective is skewed" is really a cheap argument and should not be used in any logical debate. Perspective, by its nature, is subjective and there HAS to be skewed in some sense. There is no way you can tell yours is any less and therefore it's irrelevant.

Regardless, I can't imagine how you can't see the difference.
Positional demands ask you to be in a certain place at a certain time.
Mobility is only about being able to move. It doesn't matter where you came from or where you went to. Only if there was a penalty for the movement itself.

Moving out of aoe and running from one add to another (particularly for melee) concerns mobility.
Basically having to be a certain place, which are only on mnk and drg abilities, are positional demands. They literally check where you are standing.

Both are nuanced enough not to be clumped together.
Monk positions(combo abilities) being more challenging is a whole different discussion from, say, monk gap closers or Fists of Winds.

[Aleph_One]

If we're going to get into semantics/logic, I want a turn!

... Or your perspective is skewed. I don't perceive any meaningful difference between "positioning" and "mobility". Mobility is dynamic positioning -- a subset of the concept of positioning.
...

If I'm interpreting the structure of your response correctly, then you're suggesting that two concepts do not possess meaningful differences if one of the concepts is a subset of the other.

Just because two concepts are related in some way (share a variable with the same units) doesn't mean their differences are too small to be meaningful. The empty set is a subset of the reals (or any set for that matter), but it would be wrong to infer that because of the aforementioned relation, there isn't a meaningful difference between two.

[EasymodeX]

it would be wrong to infer that because of the aforementioned relation, there isn't a meaningful difference between two.

The fact that they can have different labels means there is a "difference". However, for the purpose of my summary I used the abstract superset to refer to the concepts, because the specific difference was meaningless when we're at the level of "x class does high/med/low single target and AOE dps".

[Youmu]

SMN > DRG AOE. With proper positioning on bosses/add spawns, bane works very well for AOE damage.

[GreyJorildyn]

PLD BLM BLM WHM/SCH (doesn't matter tbh). BRD is not "needed" for WP like you said in the OP.