Mindblowingly new-old idea-question that would reduce queue times for DD's

[Ralemont]

This analogy works great for dead pieces of meat, not so much for people.

People that came to this game intending to tank rolled a tank.

Larger group sizes aren't going to do much for this. I've tanked in games with 4/5/6 man groups and it's always quick groups for tanks, medium speed for heals, and slow groups for dps.

Small groups fill faster (I don't think anyone can argue it's faster to pull 4 people together than 6 people). They require a bigger percentage of responsibility from each member, especially dps. They're also better for smaller sets of friends and guilds.

Small groups (4) are going to fill no faster than larger groups (6) if you're adding 2 DPS slots and there are a backlog of queue'd DPS, which was the point of the analogy. The analogy works with a set population for all three roles, and shows how expanding the party can satisfy a larger % of the population.

The only party that could possibly see longer gather time is the last one if the DPS population gets exhausted, which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen even with a 4:1:1 ratio.

[CianaIezuborn]

Small groups (4) are going to fill no faster than larger groups (6) if you're adding 2 DPS slots and there are a backlog of queue'd DPS, which was the point of the analogy. The analogy works with a set population for all three roles, and shows how expanding the party can satisfy a larger % of the population.

The only party that could possibly see longer gather time is the last one if the DPS population gets exhausted, which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen even with a 4:1:1 ratio.

And my argument is that a large influence on how many people switch from dps to tanks/heals is based on scarcity of tanks/heals.

This is always a problem in every game, the only solution is to tank/heal yourself or get a friend to tank/heal.

Edit: I'm also assuming you're putting together a group yourself. I'll concede that queue times would most likely drop for dps if there were more slots per tank/healer in an auto-filled group.

[Ralemont]

And my argument is that a large influence on how many people switch from dps to tanks/heals is based on scarcity of tanks/heals.

This is always a problem in every game, the only solution is to tank/heal yourself or get a friend to tank/heal.

Edit: I'm also assuming you're putting together a group yourself. I'll concede that queue times would most likely drop for dps if there were more slots per tank/healer in an auto-filled group.

But those people who would prefer to DPS but switched to tank/healer to get parties now might not have to, because the ratio of DPS to healer/tank in a party is closer to the ratio of the overall population. Isn't that preferable to someone who hates tanking, tanking because they want to do the content?

And I assumed this thread was about DF because of the "queue" discussion. For shout groups it might take longer, but I doubt by very much.

[CianaIezuborn]

But those people who would prefer to DPS but switched to tank/healer to get parties now might not have to, because the ratio of DPS to healer/tank in a party is closer to the ratio of the overall population. Isn't that preferable to someone who hates tanking, tanking because they want to do the content?

And for every 2 DPS that didn't switch over to tank/healer you'd have 4 dps in the population that weren't able to be supported in the 6 party system. My point being is that due to the human factor of the population involved, simply reducing the ratio of tank/healer to dps guarantees nothing.

The bolded part is the part of the argument that I can really get behind and the ideal situation would be group make ups that reflected the population of the game. In reality though, the group make up of any game will never permanently hit this, so someone is always going to have to step up and play their 2nd or third or even last choice for the good of the many.

That's the crux of a team game that is MMORPGs.

On a personal level, if your playing a class that has less demand than other classes, you either deal with the lesser demand or you switch to a class with higher demand.
On a team level, if no one can fill a pivot role, someone has to switch to that pivot role or no one gets to play.

[Kazamoto]

Stuff... Things

While yes, no ratio of DD:H:T will ever always match the player population at all times.


Would you agree that 1:1:4 is more accurate to the current population than 1:1:2?

[CianaIezuborn]

While yes, no ratio of DD:H:T will ever always match the player population at all times.


Would you agree that 1:1:4 is more accurate to the current population than 1:1:2?

No clue, I'd say that 1:1:3 is probably more accurate if I had to throw a wild guess given the population I interact with. I'm uncomfortable going much higher than that with no real basis for an estimation. There was a live producers note that they posted numbers of populations, I'm not sure how accurate even that is though.

I do agree that raising the ratio from 1:1:2 to 1:1:4 probably wouldn't have a negative effect on DF queue time for DPS, I'm just not sure that it would have a positive effect over the long term due to the human element of the population.

[Ralemont]

The bolded part is the part of the argument that I can really get behind and the ideal situation would be group make ups that reflected the population of the game. In reality though, the group make up of any game will never permanently hit this, so someone is always going to have to step up and play their 2nd or third or even last choice for the good of the many.

But surely improving the party ratio to better reflect population distribution is a worthwhile endeavor even if perfect balance is impossible? I mean, in my burger example 5 patties were still left uneaten. That's still better than the 15 patties we previously had.

ftr I don't think this change will ever happen. The question of number of players in a party is too central to the game structure. But I think if I was on board when ARR was just yolk in the egg I would suggest 4 or 3:1:1 instead of 2:1:1.

[CianaIezuborn]

But surely improving the party ratio to better reflect population distribution is a worthwhile endeavor even if perfect balance is impossible? I mean, in my burger example 5 patties were still left uneaten. That's still better than the 15 patties we previously had.

Again, the issue is these 15 patties can magically turn into buns due to them not wanting to wait so long to be eaten.

You can't ignore the human element that effects queues and how long someone is willing to wait to play the role they want to play. As it stands, if the queue for dps is 30 minutes then I'm assuming that's because it's more important for those folks to play as a dps than it is to have a fast queue.

Worthwhile endeavor if it cost nothing, of course. But what's the cost in re-balancing of content to fit the new group make up. What's the cost in existing FCs that have structured statics around the make up. Abstract questions, but everything implemented has a cost of something else not being implemented. It's kind of a cat's out of the bag situation, it's likely more trouble to shove it back in than to let it run wild.

[Steeled]

Again, the issue is these 15 patties can magically turn into buns due to them not wanting to wait so long to be eaten.

You can't ignore the human element that effects queues and how long someone is willing to wait to play the role they want to play. As it stands, if the queue for dps is 30 minutes then I'm assuming that's because it's more important for those folks to play as a dps than it is to have a fast queue.

Remember that this is a game, especially at the casual level 4-mans are designed for. People should be allowed to do what they want to do.

Given that, 4 man parties is just silly. It represents that no more than half the population wants to play on DPS and the two mmo's they would have gotten numbers from (XI and WoW) simply never represented those kinds of numbers. Ever.