Again about DoH

[Michelasso]

I had a chat with a guy in my FC about crafting last night. We basically reached the conclusion that crafting is quite useless for ourselves. At least for classes like WVR and GSM. Sure, it is fun. But it sucks money giving back just a little. A lot of stuff in the market is sold undercost (why do they even bother?). I mean, there are people selling in the market things at a lower price than what NPCs pay! It may cost even less to buy the lvl 50 gears HQ than to make them ourselves. It feels more like a social service to the others. Apart from melding, sure.

Again, am I missing something? Personally I am more and more convinced that crafting should at least make some untradable items that can be used only by whom made them. With good stats and at least better look.

[HEC]

Hmm - I've made over half million last week only by leveling a little of my DoHs - e.g. not making items for profit but just by selling as "side effect" of the actual leveling, otherwise I can make over a mill per week easilly with "causal" crafting while still playing with DoM / DoW. Indeed - it does differ server from server but it's not that much of difference (at least on those several servers I've created the other characters so far). And of course I do craft for myself everything - I hardly buy anything at all from markets - also for my alts on the same server (I actually use them to sell extra stuff as well as 40 sale slots on 2 retainers is not enough). One of many uses is to "mass-produce" some easilly to make mid to high range gear, then spirit bond it and convert to materia -> PROFIT!

[Anova]

My initial reaction is to ask how you're managing your overhead. Are you buying the majority of your materials from the markets or are you gathering/crafting them yourselves?

The majority of those cheap wares are possible because those crafters are crafting it themselves or having other players gather them. It is possible that some players will simply be collecting from other FC members or friends for some of the more expensive mats, especially considering you are on a legacy server where players may already have characters with multiple lvl50s (and the crafting supplies to match. FFXIV 1.0 allowed players to make a lot more mats at once, although some will have been outdated). After two months in the game, many of those players may not need tomes of philosophy anymore and are just turning it in to crafting material for gil. Note that the situation above is unique and very rare, but it gives them a significant market advantage.

As for those who pay under the npc price, just do yourself a favor. Buy it and resell it to the npcs for profit. Those players are usually out for a fast buck and undercut without checking the market price.

[Urthdigger]

I imagine the players who sell for less than it costs to make are used to the method of grinding crafts in most games: Namely, churn out a bunch of crap and try to get at least SOME of that money back. Thing is though, they should be turning items in for leves instead, and not selling for less than the material cost.

I know folks can say "Well yeah you'll lose money buying off the boards, but if you gather the items yourself..." problem with that is a little thing called opportunity cost. You're not "making money crafting" that way. You're making money by farming mobs and using DoL, and then losing some of that potential money by crafting it.

Here's hoping demand for finished goods rises somehow, or that crafters just start being more intelligent with what they make.

[Anova]

I know folks can say "Well yeah you'll lose money buying off the boards, but if you gather the items yourself..." problem with that is a little thing called opportunity cost. You're not "making money crafting" that way. You're making money by farming mobs and using DoL, and then losing some of that potential money by crafting it.

I'd have to agree with you. To clarify on my point though, I was simply asking if the OP was buying mats such as the worked leather pieces or buying the raw hide and using leatherworker to process it for Weaving mats. Even if you don't gather the mats yourself, if you can process the raw materials, it will significantly reduce your overhead. Of course, if prices are even lower than costs for raw materials, you have a significant problem where players are blindly undercutting each other. Just find solace in the fact that sort of behavior is not sustainable and will diminish as the market stabilizes.

[Naberrie]

I know folks can say "Well yeah you'll lose money buying off the boards, but if you gather the items yourself..." problem with that is a little thing called opportunity cost. You're not "making money crafting" that way. You're making money by farming mobs and using DoL, and then losing some of that potential money by crafting it.

There are other benefits from farming your own materials. I don't look at it only partly saving gil; rather, I primarily think of it as a long-term investment. I'm constantly leveling by gathering my materials. I'm leveling other crafts by crafting items I need for other recipes. Sometimes it's minor exp, sometimes it's substantial. I'm also crafting my own gear, including sometimes HQ versions, and tools. There is a very real benefit from doing as much as possible yourself.

If I see there's an item I need for a recipe, first I'll look to see if it's something I can craft. If so, what are the materials? I'll break out BTN or MNR and go gather. Then switch to WVR, BSM, GSM, etc to craft the items I need for the main recipe I'm making. Then, once I have all my ingredients together, I'll make the item I was targeting to begin with. Is it slow? Yes. But I just got exp on multiple classes just to make 1 item. It all helps in the end. All it cost me was time. And, personally, I'm not in such a hurry that I can't take some time to get things done. One day I'll be glad I got all these classes leveled up.

The more crafts you have leveled, the more they benefit one another. Even getting CUL to 15 can be beneficial for other classes. Am I making gil right now? Not a lot, but I'm not losing gil, either. My gil is at a very comfortable level and it has never dropped below that level. It just goes up.

[Urthdigger]

There are other benefits from farming your own materials.

I think you misunderstood. I am not saying gathering mats yourself has no benefit. Far from it. I am saying that it's the mat gathering that makes you money, and you're actually losing money on the synth since you could have sold the raw materials for more.

[Naberrie]

I think you misunderstood. I am not saying gathering mats yourself has no benefit. Far from it. I am saying that it's the mat gathering that makes you money, and you're actually losing money on the synth since you could have sold the raw materials for more.

True, but there are two contrary points.

One is that there's no reason you can't do both. I could easily farm mats for myself while using some and selling the rest. Also, sometimes crafting with the mats can net you more gil. For instance, I can get more gil by making lumber instead of selling logs.

Also, crafting with the mats and leveling up your crafts can get you access to other recipes or mats that can net you more gil. I just made quite a bit of gil selling mythril ores. Once I get smithing leveled more I'll be able to make ingots out of those ores and make even more gil, as the ores sell for more than the raw ores.

[Urthdigger]

True, but there are two contrary points.

One is that there's no reason you can't do both. I could easily farm mats for myself while using some and selling the rest. Also, sometimes crafting with the mats can net you more gil. For instance, I can get more gil by making lumber instead of selling logs.

Also, crafting with the mats and leveling up your crafts can get you access to other recipes or mats that can net you more gil. I just made quite a bit of gil selling mythril ores. Once I get smithing leveled more I'll be able to make ingots out of those ores and make even more gil, as the ores sell for more than the raw ores.

I understand that. Sorry if I gave the impression that crafts NEVER make money, this was simply in response to the common response that "crafting can make you money if you farm your own mats"

In the first case, you're not making money from crafting. If you get a bunch of items can could sell them for 6000 gil, but then craft an item with some of the items and the new total selling price of all your goods is 5500, the crafting process did not make you money. This is what's known as opportunity cost, in that while it didn't cost actual money, it cost potential money. As far as synths where the finished product DOES cost more than the material, by all means make and sell those. Ideally, that's how the market SHOULD be for most items.

I understand that leveling up your crafts has other benefits. I'm just saying that items being worth less than the cost of their materials is a problem for crafters, and simply farming the mats yourself doesn't fix that. All it does is offset the cost with income generated by gathering.

[Naberrie]

I gather my own materials and it's pure profit. And once you get to 50, some of the HQ crafted gear with materia added can top Darklight gear. It certainly can pay off. But it is an enormous amount of work.

I recommend leveling BTN and MNR as well, and work on your other crafts as well. You can either farm or craft just about anything you need if you do it yourself. It's slow, but pure profit.