Until Summer 2011.....

[darkstarpoet1]

It means at 8:00 exactly you are working, but stop, and then go home.

"until" is a continuous action that includes the time specified. It doesn't mean you stopped working at 7:59.

This is the textbook meaning of "until." If you specific an exact INSTANT (like "until now") it means at that instant is when the change occurs, so if I say "until summer" it means at some point during summer the plan will be complete, or change, but not before summer.

If you say, "Hey, Shai, you're really uptight. Let's just get a beer and forget about it."
and I say, "Dood, I'm going to be doing this sh-t until Saturday."

Do you think I stopped Friday?
or do you think "Well I can ask him again on Saturday, when he is stopping, but he may not have stopped yet."



Being wrong does not make one a troll.
(and I'm not wrong).

you're right i stop at eactly 8:00 not 8:01 or after. using your same example when it gets to 8 i stop. you are in spring which is 7:59. the first day of summer is 8:00.

[TheVedis]

you're right i stop at eactly 8:00 not 8:01 or after. using your same example when it gets to 8 i stop. you are in spring which is 7:59. the first day of summer is 8:00.

naming a time (8:00) is a specific time that only happens at 8:00

summer can be defined as an entire season and is not specific in general
the first day of summer, is by definition summer, as is the last day of summer

so thats a bad analogy to use

[darkstarpoet1]

naming a time (8:00) is a specific time that only happens at 8:00

summer can be defined as an entire season and is not specific in general
the first day of summer, is by definition summer, as is the last day of summer

so thats a bad analogy to use

i agree it is a bad analogy, but in the same line of thinking isn't 8:00 and no seconds the same time on the time clock as 8:00 and 59 seconds. when they say until it means finished at that time so the time frame mentioned is the first time that event happens.

edit: my only reason for getting into this at all was just because some people have to continually talk down to others when they do have a valid reason why their argument was flawed. the other question is if it was so correct why did a mod specify that it was a mistake and worded improperly?

[Shai]

why did a mod specify that it was a mistake and worded improperly?

because it's vague and misleading - it could mean the first day, week, month of summer or it could mean the last.

The translation is a poor choice of words, but not inaccurate. The plan is until summer 2011 at which point it will change into a new plan and carry us into a new "time when" (autumn).

Am I talking down? Well you should see the things Peregrine said to me. ^^
That I should re-learn English, and mail my degree back. Hehe.

I know people don't like a grammar Nazi.

[Shai]

you're right i stop at eactly 8:00 not 8:01 or after. using your same example when it gets to 8 i stop. you are in spring which is 7:59. the first day of summer is 8:00.

As Vedis said, you specified an exact moment.

You could have stopped at 8:00:00, or 8:00:59, much like Yoshida's plan could include 00:01, June 21st, or 23:59, Sept 20th. The fact of the matter is that it includes at least some part of the summer, which is all I'm trying to express.

The more tiny you make the "time phrase" (until now, I was a real dood) the more specific the actual "change of continous action" occurs, but the more broad the time, the more unclear the moment of change becomes.

Next example:

"I'm writing a book. I will be working on it until 2012."
Do you understand this to mean that at some point in 2012 I will "stop working" on the book?

"I was working on this book until now!"
One nanosecond before I said "now" I was working on the book, but as I said now, the action changed.

The bigger or smaller the time narrows down the understanding of the "time when" but regardless of "time when" the action was continuous up until that point and then ceased to continue, or changed into a new action (or plan in this case).


Edit: Changed time to 8:00 for conversation cohesion. ^^