BLM Fire II incredibly lack luster

[PessimiStick]

For those of you who still haven't figured it out, Taemek is a troll. No one that can keep from drowning in the shower is as dumb as he pretends to be. He used to only troll tank threads, he seems to have expanded to DPS threads.

[Allyrion]

For those of you who still haven't figured it out, Taemek is a troll. No one that can keep from drowning in the shower is as dumb as he pretends to be. He used to only troll tank threads, he seems to have expanded to DPS threads.

^^ This. Don't even bother.

[AppleGrocer]

Perhaps I'm doing something horribly wrong, but every time I've parsed Blizzard II spam is always much lower dps than a Fire II rotation, albeit a Fire II rotation that includes Swiftcast Flares+Transpose/Convert.

My basic AoE rotation is (you can start with Blizz III if you want, I usually don't...):
Fire III->Fire II.....->Blizz III->Blizz II->Fire III-> (Raging Strikes)-> Fire II...-> (Swiftcast-> Flare->Convert)-> Blizz III->Blizz II->Fire III-> Fire II...-> (Swiftcast-> Flare->Transpose)-> Blizz II-> Fire III-> etc.

I like to get the extra tick that casting Blizz II allows in order to get enough mana to use one more Fire II before hitting my red line, though you could probably cut it after Convert and sneak in another Fire II before switching stances. And I know that some people say that using SC->Flare->Transpose is a dps loss, but every time I've parsed it provides a dps boost (worst case scenario is you transpose right after a mana tick was supposed to happen and idle for ~a GCD, best case scenario, it's essentially free dps with a slightly longer cast time on your next Fire III). Might be worth cutting, might not, still need to play around with it more. I just like to use Swiftcast for *something* when Convert is down.

I think that the Blizz III-> Fire III->Flare-> Transpose-> Blizz II X2-> Fire III->etc. rotation might be more dps then you're normal Fire II rotation, but it's just so finicky. Sometimes Flare doesnt get the cast speed buff from Umbral Ice III (sometimes Fire III doesn't even get it if you press it too fast), and you idle to a complete stop for ~15 seconds if you press transpose too early during the cast animation for Flare. Sure, if you can pull it off consistently, which isn't too terribly hard, you will probably gain a chunk of dps, but IMO it's not worth the trouble or the penalty for screwing up.

Keep in mind that I'm still testing stuff out and parsers aren't super reliable, but I figured another point of view might be useful to the community. Especially considering that other poster a page or two back that got opposite results compared to the OP's.

[Exstal]

Using AoE for 1~3 mobs is silly. :/

[Taemek]

Using AoE for 1~3 mobs is silly. :/

I agree, as do many others.

[AppleGrocer]

It seems to me that the problem is one of measures rather than arithmetic, potency or dps.
The post that you keep quoting in regards to the break point wherein BLM AoE dps takes over is misleading, or at least I think so. Yes, according to your numbers, if I'm doing 320 AoE dps on 3 mobs and 350 ST dps, of course it will just be faster to single target, there's no question about that. But, I find it hard to believe you're only pulling 320 AoE dps on those 3 mobs if you're capable of that kind of ST output. Hence people's reliance on potency rather than hard DPS numbers. Fire I is 150 potency with a 2.5 second base cast time, Fire II is 100 potency with a 3 second base cast time. With this in mind, create a scenario:

180 second encounter, 1 mob
Fire I:
180/2.5= 72 casts of fire 1
72*150=10800 potency applied to target from Fire I
Firestarter has a 40% proc rate, so out of 72 casts you will be able to cast 29 (rounded) Fire III's at 220 potency (72*.4=28.8), which equals 6336 additional potency assuming none of those are double procs.
72-29= 43 (since using a proc eats a GCD and therefore a fire cast)
6336+(43*150)= 12,786 potency applied to target over the course of 180 seconds after Firestarter procs and assuming infinite mana for fire spam.

Fire II:
180/3= 60 casts of Fire II
60*100= 6000 Potency applied to target over the course of 180 seconds
No procs or anything, simple.

However, if we make it 3 mobs instead:
Fire I:
It's exactly the same, 12,786 potency. Nothing changes.

Fire II:
180/3= 60 casts of Fire II
60*100= 6,000 potency to a single target
But, believe it or not, the fact that Fire II hits multiple targets means that it's potency gets applied to ALL of them. If I hit 1 mob for 400 damage, and another for 400, and another for 400, guess what, I just did 1,200 damage.
6,000*3=18,000 potency applied over the course of 180 seconds.



Now let's assume you're more interested in kill speed rather than damage dealt over a set amount of time, which you should be. Let's assuming the shortest possible encounter that is theoretically most favorable to ST damage:

1 mob with less HP than the damage dealt by a Fire I, but more HP than the damage dealt by Fire II.
Fire I:
Mob is dead in 2.5 seconds

Fire II:
Mob is dead in 6 Seconds

Now with 3 mobs
Fire I:
Mob 1 is dead in 2.5 seconds
Mob 2 is dead in 5 seconds
Mob 3 is dead in 7.5 seconds

Fire II
Mobs 1,2, and 3 are alive after 3 seconds
Mobs 1,2, and 3 are dead after 6 seconds


The gap only gets bigger the more Fire I's it takes to bring down a mob. Anyway you slice it, the AoE break point is 3 mobs.

[Exstal]

I just use Fira rotation with my other BLM and we do fine.

[Azoryl]

ST for 3 or less...
AE for 4 or more

The rule to live by.

[Vmage]

ST for 2 or less...
AE for 3 or more

The rule to live by.

actually this.. and if you're a class that has DoTs (all of them) and the 2 or less things you're fighting will live through the entirety/most of the duration, you're better off hitting both of them with DoTs before using your ST rotation

not sure why people think there needs to be more than 3 targets for aoe to be effective... especially as a black mage, although it's equally (albeit less obvious) true on every single class in the game.

is it so hard to multiply the potency of your aoe skill by 3 and compare that result to your single target stuff?

honestly there are some cases where using an aoe attack that only hits 2 targets is better dps than using ST things on one and then the other.. some of those (very very under utilized) aoe attacks have pretty high potency

[EasymodeX]

So, most of this thread adequately qualifies as the "dumbest thing I've read on the official forums".