The Tank DPS Thread

[Stormx]

Forgot about the maint tonight, I'll put up parses early tomorrow. Sorry bout that

[ZDamned]

So, after testing until both ran out of TP. I had Marauder clocking in at 184 DPS, and then I equipped the Warrior crystal, so identical gear. After running out of TP again, I had 180 DPS. Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes are not good for DPS sustainable, just for quick bursts, such as the Titan Heart. 10 Strength makes for a lot of damage when you consider theese results.

[Stormx]

I would like to see the base strength you have during each test, as well as which weapon before I could consider those results, as they seem way off. Also, the warrior job crystal provides 20 strength, not 10.

Edit: I am wrong, it does in fact give 10. I am baffled, I swore for sure that it gave 20. Did they change that recently, can anyone confirm? So strange I wouldve bet my first born on it being 20.

[Stormx]

The results are in! Nothing surprising though.

Every parse was done with the same exact gear. Full Darklight + Fending accessories or, full Darklight + maim/strike accessories.

PLD, +1 Curtana, 30 vit allocation, shield oath, full on tank mode:
http://i.imgur.com/BgzrEti.jpg

PLD, +1 Curtana, 30 str allocation, sword oath, full on deeps mode:
http://i.imgur.com/Vy5r8sn.jpg

War, NO +1 Bravura, 30 vit allocation, defiance, full on tank mode:
http://i.imgur.com/HFwq6W5.jpg

War, NO +1 Bravura, 30 str allocation, NO defiance, full on deeps mode:
http://i.imgur.com/pObWP2L.jpg

Heres the fun part.

MRD, GARUDA AXE (ROLFZ BOW DOWN TO YOUR OVERLORD), 30 str allocation, full on deeps mode:
http://i.imgur.com/mW6jWb3.jpg

Final analysis: +1 Means A LOT, drastic dps difference. Consider that when looking at the above results. A +1 Curtana vs a NO +1 Bravura hardly makes it a fair test, but it is all I had to work with. In my previous testing, I have seen anywhere between 30 to 50% DPS differences between the two classes with the same gear. War does MOAR dmg in any given scenario. DPS gear, sword oath vs defiance, aoe, any situation the results will be the same, WAR will win, there isn't much of an argument.

With that said, MRD is more than viable of performing up to level of main spec DPS classes. If any WARS out there have gotten lucky off of Twin yet, hit me up. I would love to get parses from you.

[Gamemako]

Final analysis: +1 Means A LOT, drastic dps difference.

Actually, that +2 weapon damage and +3 strength means 3-4% DPS increase (depending on how much STR you start with). It's not nearly as large as you think.

If you assume a 3% difference, WAR has a comparative 19.2% advantage in your test. Now, go back to my first post on these forums (math was already done from beta forums), and I predicted an 18% advantage for WAR in tank mode. I also predicted the negligible difference between non-tank DPS; your test would show a roughly 2% advantage for WAR after accounting for weapon difference, which is certainly negligible. It's far from perfect (I can point out a half-dozen things which have since been shown to function differently than I had assumed), but in the end, you ended up about where I expected 3 months ago.

And yes, I whiffed a good amount on my enmity estimates because the tank stance modifier was lowered from 2x in phase 3 to 1.5x in release. What looked like a 2:1 lead lost a lot of steam. Oops.

//EDIT: The design reason that WAR has higher tank DPS is two-fold. First, part of that DPS is beholden to a non-DPS rotation. Enmity demands will suggest SE->BB->BB rotation, which reduces the advantage due to losing SE bonus. You also will have trouble fitting Fracture into a tanking rotation, and you aren't going to drop Inner Beast, your burst mitigation ability, on cooldown. These all cut into your practical tanking DPS. Additionally, PLD also benefits from Storm's Eye, which means what when both are on the same target, the advantage all but completely evaporates. This will be especially important when we get a second job for MRD which is a DPS job.

[Stormx]

Fracture uptime isn't difficult during tanking rotation, as well as in my test, inner beast wasn't dropped on CD. It was used at the end of berserk. And hate early on is manageable by SE > BB > BB, but a minute or so into the fight, hate stabilizes and requires less over BB which in turn is more SE uptime. Also, my main point for contributing to this thread was to show PLD DPS is considerably lower than WAR and that the DPS job for MRD, potentially, is MRD. (With correct gear)

Edit: And unless for some reason Storms Eye accounts for 18% dmg difference, I don't see how the difference evaporates. I would need more elaboration on that.

[Gamemako]

Fracture uptime isn't difficult during tanking rotation... And hate early on is manageable by SE > BB > BB, but a minute or so into the fight, hate stabilizes and requires less over BB which in turn is more SE uptime.

After a 30s offset, sure. However, if you aren't starting your rotation with 2 BB combos, you're risking getting hate ripped from you by a BLM or DRG. Asking them to slow down would be unwise; your own DPS gain isn't nearly going to account for what they lose. After getting an enmity lead, you can move to SE. Consider, though, that this is a 20s period where you've got no buffs up. Your long-term DPS advantage over PLD is around 20%, and your buffs are 33%. In that lead-in, period you're actually losing the DPS battle with PLD -- you have to take some time to catch up. It's a long and complex relationship between the two in terms of DPS.

Edit: And unless for some reason Storms Eye accounts for 18% dmg difference, I don't see how the difference evaporates. I would need more elaboration on that.

18% is noticeable. 6% is not. This is especially true with what I noted above; it will take some time for a WAR to catch up if Storm's Eye is available to both. The 6-7% advantage is contingent upon a 20% buff that is offset by 20s. Let's assume 7% just as an example. That puts you behind by 2.167 DPS-seconds before getting Maim up. That takes 31 additional seconds to catch up, meaning you're 51 seconds into the fight before WAR catches up to PLD in damage.

Also, my main point for contributing to this thread was to show PLD DPS is considerably lower than WAR and that the DPS job for MRD, potentially, is MRD. (With correct gear)

MRD DPS is just decent. It's not quite up to snuff with dedicated DPS jobs, but not too far behind. This isn't news. We'll eventually get a DPS job for MRD because the class is designed for it. Compare MRD to LNC and you can see that MRD is 90% of the way there already. If it weren't for the enmity bonuses, it would be the WAR who would seem the alternative use. Foresight sucks and is cross-class (every melee DPS has a token cross-class defensive cooldown), Bloodbath scales the wrong way and is cross-class, Mercy Stroke is a total DPS ability masquerading as tank (a-la Life Surge) and is also cross-class, and Thrill of Battle returns HP on a long cooldown. WAR's design is made on the level 35 weaponskill. It's a one-trick pony of a job, hijacking damage abilities for mitigation via Inner Beast. If you took off the enmity and asked me what the class was for, I'd say it's an HP-limited DPS, like a Dark Knight. The only thing keeping me from proclaiming that MRD will become DRK is the lack of other good options for GLA.

[Judge_Xero]

The results are in! Nothing surprising though.

Pretty much what I was expecting. Could you also do one of STR PLD in Shield Oath vs STR WAR in Defiance? Class HP values would also be interesting.