New jobs upcoming, new tanks?

[SwordCoheir]

THF into NIN is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Didn't say that previous FF iterations don't have influence, I'm just saying conceptually in the world of FF THF and NIN function differently even if they have similarities between one another. And though NIN is treated as an advanced job to THF in some FF iterations such as Tactics and FF1 not all iterations of jobs in previous FF titles have maintained the same functions and roles throughout the series nor the same specialties, and sometimes when specialties did cross over in previous titles it may have been more out of lack of roles or necessity.

For example lets take SCH, they're renowned for being users of black and white magic in previous FF titles but was never a pet/summoner class which is contrary to FFXIV's SCH which is more closely related to FFIII's Sage, that is an example of role change. For an example of lack of roles/necessity you can look at Rydia, she's primarily classified as a Summoner but she's also a solid Nuker and for the early parts of the game she's your only real healer between temp party members like Porom, Palom, and Tellah.

Edge as you brought up does share characteristics from NIN and THF, but there isn't a THF oriented character in FF4 either, so I can see Square being a little lax with roles in that instance, but it's not like you see similarities between Shadow and Locke conflicting with one another in FF6 or the job system in FF3 and FF5 where both jobs are present.

BTW Yuffie is a Thief and Ninja by choice of her personality, and technically anyone in FF2, FF7, and FF8 can theoretically be a THF/NIN because there isn't a set job to any character.

This comparison is laughable at best. Everything you stated Thief can do, Ninja historically did anyway. "Ninja bound by honour." Did you know what ninjas are? Hence that statement is silly.

Don't mistake honor with nobility. I mean sure you get the typical rogue ninja, but many ninja clans societies still functioned with the caste system of Feudal Japan at the time, and didn't typically make a move without the consent of the head of the household/clan/estate/whatever. The family honor and loyalty still meant much to them weather or not the family or the individuals intentions were of noble origins.

Thieves on the other hand typically act independently of one another, and though guilds have historically been established to maintain order just like any organized crime syndicate, a typical thief's loyalty can more likely change on a whim or be bought out than compared to a Ninjas.

[bs3311]

Jeez! Enough Everybody!

"follow MMORPG standards"

And not follow FF standards? This game is to be an MMO in the final fantasy "universe". I will accept there being differences in class/jobs since FF is a universe with other universes. But stating that tanks that are tanking here are tankers that tanked in previous games sounds incredibly ignorant due to my expirence starting out as a tank for the first time in this game which is my first MMO ive ever played.After additional knowledge of my class, skills, and rude critisism I am now the tank you see today which I find to be my favorite playstyle. But this may not be my favorite playstyle job wise due to playing past FF games where PLD and DRK are two sides of the same coin making me jump to conclusion that they are both Tanks at heart. And we know that the creators state they don't want to bring similarity of XI into the mix. So following your standard in following MMO standards, I assume it can be a Tank.

And from what I hear from my friend who bashes this game as an MMO vet, he thinks that the game is going to flop again with the amount of DPS there are along with the fact that the community is going to complain about adding more DPS jobs instead of adding more variety of jobs with different playstyles to bring more people with different tastes. When you cater to one audience, a different audience leaves it alone. But if catering to both, you can get both by the ear.

And I don't see a giant similarity with WAR since not only I am a max lvl and earning relic of that job, but the playstyle seems different. If were following self healing, than WAR is incredibally low class on that style of play due to the fact we need to keep our stacks of wrath up. Even when we activate Inner Beast along with berserk and bloodbath, one recieves around 2k hp and then our heal support decreases unless you pop infuriate. If already used, then prepare for a world of hurt unless you have some god healers. Who knows, maybe the next patch thats helping WAR will remove that changing it into a self buff high dmg tank. Everything else has a slight similarity except for equipment and lore. DRK are greatswordsmen with PLD like HP who can drain or exchange hp for damage while knowledgable of light damage/debuff magic, while WAR are native axe-wielders whith high hp who are self buffers with high dps while low defense.

Overall I can respect your opinion unless I state mine, but I believe Kitru has a solid point. Except for the idea of adding thief as a starting class. But the developers can pull a story idea by saying the previous class of thieves were wiped out in war and now a new breed called rouges have formed the guilds again. Sounds funny but sweet XD.

[NefGP]

NIN in FFXI was never intended to be a tank, they were meant to be a DD/enfeebling Job - Utsusemi was designed simply as a 'get-out-of-jail-free card' if they pulled too much hate. Of course, players being how they are, had other ideas and realized they could abuse it by using it for tanking, despite NIN having all the defense of a wet paper bag, as the only other way they can avoid attacks was with high evasion. Also they had no native hate-generating abilities and even with WAR subbed for Provoke often struggled to hold hate properly.

Only later did SE buckle to player demands and gave NIN it's own hate-generating abilities, but it was still a glass cannon once it's shadows went down, not to mention a lot of enemies ate through shadows like they weren't even there. Hence why I seriously hope SE doesn't repeat this nonsense and keeps NIN as a DD Job in FFXIV when it's implemented.

Something I honestly wish they'd NEVER done. They should have instead made shuriken more accessible and buffed elemental ninjutsu, and made WAR & MNK stronger tanks instead of just giving NIN tank gear.

[Rochetm]

Evasion tanks always go one of two ways. They are either broken, overpowered tanking gods that never die, or they are useless squishy messes that turn into a fine red mist the first time their RNG armour fails.

That being said, I have heard rumours of the Dancer class being an avoidance based tank built from the Pugilist class. Also I've seen Templar suggested as a spear+shield tank based off the Lancer.

Monks work just fine in WoW...

Also hoping they branch PGL like they did ACN and give me a tanking option to pair up with my monk.

[Steeled]

Monks work just fine in WoW...

Also hoping they branch PGL like they did ACN and give me a tanking option to pair up with my monk.

Monk was a fun lowman/dyna tank at 75, when it had to sub ninja, however noone tanked on monk at 75. (Well, I did, but most didn't).

Recently? Monk is not a tank. It is a high HP damage sponge.

- - -

At this time, I hope they don't add more tanks.

They're not famous for achieving balance (here or XI).

To the notion that more tanks increase the number available, they don't really. I am conchobar, I play Paladin and Warrior. I would eagerly play Dark Knight if it was a tank, but that doesn't add a tank to the population, that just changes what job I'm on to tank with.

There are a lot of players like me. Decent/Good/Great tanks will do it if they enjoy it or it gets them tomes faster. Bad/Worst/People who just loathe it will not do it, no matter what you dangle in front of them.

[Phreak]

Monks work just fine in WoW...

Also hoping they branch PGL like they did ACN and give me a tanking option to pair up with my monk.

Monk in WoW are NOT evasion tanks. The closest thing to an evasion tank was the Feral druid and they ended up changing that multiple times because it was so hit or miss on boss fights.

[PSxpert2011]

The problem with more tank classes is that it is just awfully hard to balance them so that they are all equally desirable. Just wondering.

If there was more tank classes, my PLD wouldn't get the special attention it so deserves! @____@


(tho Viking would be totally awesome, as DPS)

The closest thing to an evasion tank was ...

FFXI's Ninja. BAR NONE!

[Kitru]

FFXI's Ninja. BAR NONE!

Your reading comprehension is horrible. He's talking about WoW, not tanks in general.

Honestly, the "truest" evasion tank that I ever saw was the Super Reflexes defensive powerset in City of Heroes/Villains. It had literally *no* static damage reduction and only increased RNG-based, all-or-nothing mitigation (i.e. dodge). City of Heroes really was interesting because it's a pretty good case study for the various strengths, weaknesses, and balance problems inherent in the different types of mitigation/support because it *really* liked to have defensive powersets focus on one mechanism an inordinate amount (or, in the case of sets like Regeneration and Super Reflexes, exclusively).

Ninja, in FFXI, was more of a "blink tank": rather than relying upon dodging, it relied upon charges that allowed it to ignore attacks completely. Evasion almost always refers to the RNG mechanism for avoiding damage via dodging; Utsusemi had more in common with Hallowed Ground than it did with dodging: the only real difference is that Hallowed Ground lasts for a flat time period whereas Utsusemi only worked on a given number of attacks..

[Masenken]

Prefer blink tanking over pure evasion. At least then, you have some physical control over what hits you take, instead trying to depend solely on rng to favor you... especially against hard hitting burst damage types. Not saying that has to be ninja, but I prefer abilities that force enemies to whiff. Makes me feel like I really dodged a bullet then.

[Kitru]

Prefer blink tanking over pure evasion. At least then, you have some physical control over what hits you take, instead trying to depend solely on rng to favor you... especially against hard hitting burst damage types. Not saying that has to be ninja, but I prefer abilities that force enemies to whiff. Makes me feel like I really dodged a bullet then.

The problem with blink tanking is pretty much identical to the scaling problems of self healing only, instead of being based upon the damage dealt, it's based upon the number of incoming attacks. As soon as the number of attacks exceeds the planned threshold, the tank drops like a stone. Of course, with full on blink tanking, if the number of attacks is *below* the planned threshold, the tank becomes insanely overpowered because it simply stops taking any damage at all, which is what Ninja ended up doing in FFXI so often. On top of that, because blink tanking is pretty much controlled all-or-nothing, on fights with predictable burst damage they become *insanely* overpowered or effectively paper tanks: either the attack obeys the blink and they get to ignore the attack completely or the attack ignores the blink (similar to how the primal super-attacks ignore Hallowed Ground) and they're left effectively defenseless.

Like I said before, there's a reason that most tanks tend to follow a very similar paradigm: if you rely on the other forms and implementations of the mitigation mechanisms, you start getting performance that vacillates wildly from fight to fight and even within the same fight. It's hard to explain how a tank can be balanced when it turns on fight into a complete joke by ignoring it completely and, on another fight, is only as durable as a DPS. Blink tanking as a compliment to a foundation of static mitigation (like a 60 sec CD with 5-10 stacks that last 10 seconds) could work out well (as long as the primal super attacks still ignored it and there were some mechanism that prevented it from always completely avoiding attacks that are intended to pressure tanks/healers like Mountain Buster like the blink reducing said damage by half instead of ignoring it outright), but when it becomes the defining factor in *how* you tank, rather than the little bit customization that sufficiently differentiates you from other tanks, you run into problems.