Say No to auto-attack!

[Honz]

what should stop the tank from provoking, is that he did way too many regular attacks earlier, or popped a weaponskill. How well a tank cant tank and do other things with stamina is a measure of skill and tactics, in cooldown system, its a plan of a sequence of rotations ahead of time. its a totally different mechanic.

the reason it isnt a universal coold down is because you dont stop all actions, you can choose to chain together actions or you can space them out. also different skills have different values, a taunt is worth 2 attacks, which do you choose? cooldown system you dont choose between the two, you do both. Its intrinsicly different, whether you like it or not, dont think its the same things, or serves the same purpose, or is the same game mechanic.

the fact that you have to wait, doesnt make it like a cooldown.

Feels like I'm wasting my time trying to explain the system to you. Since you adamantly believe the stamina bar does not act as a pseudo cool down timer then do so.

Believe it or not the developers think the same way I do and are going to increase or decrease cool downs on abilities to balance out a non stamina bar system.

Edit: Ok you don't know how a universal cool down works, don't make assumptions about game mechanics in which you have vague knowledge of. Proposing a hypothetical situation in which a gladiator has to choose provoke over other skills doesn't justify your conclusions. When a gladiator has to provoke there are more variables in play than just the stamina bar. (I really don't want to get into a detailed explanation of how tanking roles work in the current FFXIV.) Point is stamina bar mechanics work similar to a universal cool down timer.

ie. can't use another skill because your universal cool down timer still have 2 seconds left. can't use another skill because you don't have enough stamina therefore you have to wait 2 seconds. They both produce the same effect. Obviously with a full stamina bar you can get off a provoke and a taunt without waiting whereas a universal cool down timer wouldn't allow it. But you see thats not the point here, in longer battles is where you begin to understand how the stamina bar is like a universal cool down timer.

[Physic]

Feels like I'm wasting my time trying to explain the system to you. Since you adamantly believe the stamina bar does not act as a pseudo cool down timer then do so.

Believe it or not the developers think the same way I do and are going to increase or decrease cool downs on abilities to balance out a non stamina bar system.



Edit: Ok you don't know how a universal cool down works, don't make assumptions about game mechanics in which you have vague knowledge of. Proposing a hypothetical situation in which a gladiator has to choose provoke over other skills doesn't justify your conclusions. When a gladiator has to provoke there are more variables in play than just the stamina bar. (I really don't want to get into a detailed explanation of how tanking roles work in the current FFXIV.) Point is stamina bar mechanics work similar to a universal cool down timer.

ie. can't use another skill because your universal cool down timer still have 2 seconds left. can't use another skill because you don't have enough stamina therefore you have to wait 2 seconds. They both produce the same effect. Obviously with a full stamina bar you can get off a provoke and a taunt without waiting whereas a universal cool down timer wouldn't allow it. But you see thats not the point here, in longer battles is where you begin to understand how the stamina bar is like a universal cool down timer.

I understand completely but it isnt a universal cool down because even taking your conceptualization into account, it would have to be a universal cool down that is different for each skill, and balanced around that, also some skills dont trigger the cool down, so using the term universal cool down doesnt exactly describe the effect. Also the ability to chain or not chain, to act or not act at one time is in and of itself a huge difference.
Strategies can occur where you slay sleep a mob, make every one rest, then wake it up and sleep it again. Strategies occur where you hit the enemy hard and fast then run away and dodge its attacks while you regain stamina (one of the reasons running from attacks does waste your dps, is because of stamina) Waiting for the monster to attack and then unleashing a chain of skills, so you can get two evade skills, off, then hit it hard before it can attack you again, because its attack cooldown is happening.
these are all strategies using the nature of being able to choose when to attack, that only a stamina system puts into place. Universal cooldown system, those seconds while you run away you are wasting damage potential, because every second you dont use abilities when its available puts you on a longer wait till when you can use it again

Its a fundamentally different system, You can argue which one is better, but the tactics and strategies, and optimal play styles will totally change. Its not just a timer. Its a different mechanic, being able to choose when to do any action, or not to, versus any time you are not doing an action you are limiting your total action output.

just because a battle is long doesnt mean you do not use your stamina wisely, you attack when attacking is profitable, if your smart, you chain together certain abilities when you have low stamina, and others when you have large stamina. You adjust what you do based on what happened in the battle, like i wait to see if i get the phalanx off, if i do get a block, i can phalanx which acts like a provoke, i dont need a provoke anymore, now i can attack, or heal. In a cool down system, you use the voke, and the phalanx, and the attack, or you wait, knowing that each second you wait, you are going to have the same cool downs going on.

But i dont think you understand the difference because you only see stamina as a limit to your next action, you start to run out and think this is the same as waiting for cooldowns, you dont see it because you use your skills whenever they come up, based on your need at the time, you dont use your skills with the fact that you dont have to use them at every juncture.

This is why people want to be able to move while attacking, its because they think they are always supposed to attack. You move, and then you attack, you lose nothing for waiting, letting your stamina build, and watching the enemy, in a stamina system. the same is not true in a cooldown system no matter how you slice it.
Same thing with BR use, you lose nothing joining a BR unless people take a long ass time, because while they are queueing, you are getting stamina.
Fighting a mongrel, you lose nothing waiting till your stamina is full, and unleashing a fast chain of skills to burn it down, because stamina allows you to choose when to burn down, or to go step by step
Talking in combat? use your stamina, talk, then burn it down.

People just never really understood how to use stamina to thier advantage, or how involved it was with other game mechanics, but its going away now, so thats fine.
I just understand how the same techniques and strategies, will not be as rewarding, or viable, because i understood how to use the stamina system. The new system may be more pleasurable and understandable by all, but its not going to be the same strategies, and tactics that made sense before, its a fundamentally different system at work now.

[Honz]

I understand completely but it isnt a universal cool down because even taking your conceptualization into account, it would have to be a universal cool down that is different for each skill, and balanced around that, also some skills dont trigger the cool down, so using the term universal cool down doesnt exactly describe the effect. Also the ability to chain or not chain, to act or not act at one time is in and of itself a huge difference.
Strategies can occur where you slay sleep a mob, make every one rest, then wake it up and sleep it again. Strategies occur where you hit the enemy hard and fast then run away and dodge its attacks while you regain stamina (one of the reasons running from attacks does waste your dps, is because of stamina) Waiting for the monster to attack and then unleashing a chain of skills, so you can get two evade skills, off, then hit it hard before it can attack you again, because its attack cooldown is happening.
these are all strategies using the nature of being able to choose when to attack, that only a stamina system puts into place. Universal cooldown system, those seconds while you run away you are wasting damage potential, because every second you dont use abilities when its available puts you on a longer wait till when you can use it again

Its a fundamentally different system, You can argue which one is better, but the tactics and strategies, and optimal play styles will totally change. Its not just a timer. Its a different mechanic, being able to choose when to do any action, or not to, versus any time you are not doing an action you are limiting your total action output.

just because a battle is long doesnt mean you do not use your stamina wisely, you attack when attacking is profitable, if your smart, you chain together certain abilities when you have low stamina, and others when you have large stamina. You adjust what you do based on what happened in the battle, like i wait to see if i get the phalanx off, if i do get a block, i can phalanx which acts like a provoke, i dont need a provoke anymore, now i can attack, or heal. In a cool down system, you use the voke, and the phalanx, and the attack, or you wait, knowing that each second you wait, you are going to have the same cool downs going on.

But i dont think you understand the difference because you only see stamina as a limit to your next action, you start to run out and think this is the same as waiting for cooldowns, you dont see it because you use your skills whenever they come up, based on your need at the time, you dont use your skills with the fact that you dont have to use them at every juncture.

This is why people want to be able to move while attacking, its because they think they are always supposed to attack. You move, and then you attack, you lose nothing for waiting, letting your stamina build, and watching the enemy, in a stamina system. the same is not true in a cooldown system no matter how you slice it.
Same thing with BR use, you lose nothing joining a BR unless people take a long ass time, because while they are queueing, you are getting stamina.
Fighting a mongrel, you lose nothing waiting till your stamina is full, and unleashing a fast chain of skills to burn it down, because stamina allows you to choose when to burn down, or to go step by step
Talking in combat? use your stamina, talk, then burn it down.

People just never really understood how to use stamina to thier advantage, or how involved it was with other game mechanics, but its going away now, so thats fine.
I just understand how the same techniques and strategies, will not be as rewarding, or viable, because i understood how to use the stamina system. The new system may be more pleasurable and understandable by all, but its not going to be the same strategies, and tactics that made sense before, its a fundamentally different system at work now.

Sorry its you who doesn't understand. You do not understand what a universal cool down timer is. Believe me when I say there are only 4-5 abilities out of every single ability/spell/skill in this game that doesn't require stamina. You see in a universal cooldown timer system not all abilities activate the timer, therefore using skills without waiting is also possible as well. I didn't want to bring this up but World of Warcraft has a battle system with a universal cooldown timer. I suggest you master that system first and understand the concept before making speculations.

Not losing out when you're waiting around to analyze the enemy movements? lol, this would be true if the mobs also stop attacking, in a tough fight with limited resources (HP/MP) you're on a timer the slower you act the less chance you have of survival.

I didn't want to explain how tanking works in a 5 min NM fight but here goes. As a tank pull with emulate so you're able to use it again asap. Start off next with a provoke II or taunt II, why? Because if you're in a organized party the melee and mages will jump right in and if you don't use both you will be starting off with a weak hate threshold and lose the NM's attention about 40 seconds in. And to keep threat off a powerful party that can down Uraeus and Buffalo in less than 5-6 mins you need to use provoke and taunt everytime you have enough stamina. Since a gladiator is already strapped on stamina use invigorate for tp instead of normal attacks to reserve your stamina. (this works best because of how tp generation is scaled to how much dmg is done to a percent of a target's health). Phalanx damage is not going to get you any threat on a NM, you're just wasting your TP. A weaponskill without buffs from the front of an NM is most likely going to miss even if it lands the damage done is insignificant even the bonus enmity from phalanx isn't good enough because of the accuracy. Just save TP to use riot blade in a BR, the damage alone is more useful than spamming 7-8 phalanxes.

To play melee efficiently during NM fights you're literally spamming 1,1,1,1,1,1 so you're able to generate enough TP to participate in BRs, and because of this you sitting around waiting for more stamina. Yes an effective party will be launching BRs at every 20-40 seconds. Melee TP generation is really poor on NMs any melee without invigorate I at the very least will not gain more than 1k TP every time you have to participate in BRs. I'm not even sure if explaining this will help you understand how the stamina bar works in longer battles.

The method I explained is how most people down NMs efficiently, the faster you down a NM the more times you can kill it during a single spawn time window therefore maximizing you're chance at drops. I'm assuming you're never encountered any of the tougher NMs or tried to kill them efficiently. You really have to be in the situation to understand how it works.

[Physic]

Sorry its you who doesn't understand. You do not understand what a universal cool down timer is. Believe me when I say there are only 4-5 abilities out of every single ability/spell/skill in this game that doesn't require stamina. You see in a universal cooldown timer system not all abilities activate the timer, therefore using skills without waiting is also possible as well. I didn't want to bring this up but World of Warcraft has a battle system with a universal cooldown timer. I suggest you master that system first and understand the concept before making speculations.

Not losing out when you're waiting around to analyze the enemy movements? lol, this would be true if the mobs also stop attacking, in a tough fight with limited resources (HP/MP) you're on a timer the slower you act the less chance you have of survival.

I didn't want to explain how tanking works in a 5 min NM fight but here goes. As a tank pull with emulate so you're able to use it again asap. Start off next with a provoke II or taunt II, why? Because if you're in a organized party the melee and mages will jump right in and if you don't use both you will be starting off with a weak hate threshold and lose the NM's attention about 40 seconds in. And to keep threat off a powerful party that can down Uraeus and Buffalo in less than 5-6 mins you need to use provoke and taunt everytime you have enough stamina. Since a gladiator is already strapped on stamina use invigorate for tp instead of normal attacks to reserve your stamina. (this works best because of how tp generation is scaled to how much dmg is done to a percent of a target's health). Phalanx damage is not going to get you any threat on a NM, you're just wasting your TP. A weaponskill without buffs from the front of an NM is most likely going to miss even if it lands the damage done is insignificant even the bonus enmity from phalanx isn't good enough because of the accuracy. Just save TP to use riot blade in a BR, the damage alone is more useful than spamming 7-8 phalanxes.

To play melee efficiently during NM fights you're literally spamming 1,1,1,1,1,1 so you're able to generate enough TP to participate in BRs, and because of this you sitting around waiting for more stamina. Yes an effective party will be launching BRs at every 20-40 seconds. Melee TP generation is really poor on NMs any melee without invigorate I at the very least will not gain more than 1k TP every time you have to participate in BRs. I'm not even sure if explaining this will help you understand how the stamina bar works in longer battles.

The method I explained is how most people down NMs efficiently, the faster you down a NM the more times you can kill it during a single spawn time window therefore maximizing you're chance at drops. I'm assuming you're never encountered any of the tougher NMs or tried to kill them efficiently. You really have to be in the situation to understand how it works.

i wrote another overly long response, but it got lost so basically its this

i understand how you played, and how most people played, they just take damage most times, or get caught by weaponskills, and are often missing reactionary skills due to being in the middle of an action, they will very rarely get to do jarring+haymaker off one dodge effect.

But my point is that was not the best use of the system, you can time your attacks to right after the monster attacks, it cannot attack directly after it attacks with basic attacks. you can dodge weaponskills, heck you can even burn all your stamina run out of range, and run back in before stamina comes back and you lose nothing, you lose nothing circling for superior position, or adjusting your distance from an enemy after an attack brings you closer or lining up monsters for a seismic shock/puncture. if you have 10 actions in a minute, you can use all 10 actions whenever its best

that is under stamina, under cooldown, ever second you do not act, you are wasting dps. in a cool down system if you can do 1 action every 6 seconds, you have to do 1 action every 6 seconds to equal 10 actions in a minute, any time you are not acting your are lowering the amount of actions you can take in a minute. if i waste time dodging, or delay to get in position for an attack to the back or side, if i wait for a BR i am losing actions, i may only get to take 5 actions in a minute. you have to be constantly using your skills whenever they are available to get max use.


thats a fundamental difference, it changes everything. most people were playing the system like they had to constantly act, but it was a fallacy, dont worry, it wont be a fallacy in the future.

[Honz]

i understand how you played, and how most people played, they just take damage most times, or get caught by weaponskills, and are often missing reactionary skills due to being in the middle of an action, they will very rarely get to do jarring+haymaker off one dodge effect.

But my point is that was not the best use of the system.

No, you see the "best" use of the system is situational at best and subjective. In long battles (5 mins or more) none of what you mentioned applies. The "best" use of the system is what I described, there no debating about it. The method has been tested and used by thousands of players it is the most efficient way to play during NMs.

that is under stamina, under cooldown, ever second you do not act, you are wasting dps. in a cool down system if you can do 1 action every 6 seconds, you have to do 1 action every 6 seconds to equal 10 actions in a minute, any time you are not acting your are lowering the amount of actions you can take in a minute. if i waste time dodging, or delay to get in position for an attack to the back or side, if i wait for a BR i am losing actions, i may only get to take 5 actions in a minute. you have to be constantly using your skills whenever they are available to get max use.

You see that is not how a universal cool down timer works. I'm going to take a page from World of Warcraft's battle system. Not every skill triggers the UCD, only certain skills do and when they do the timer for the UCD isn't always the same. The UCD can also activate on skills that do not directly affect your target (ie buffs, heals, etc.) your positioning has nothing to do with how a UCD even works. Waiting for the stamina bar to regen produces the same combat effect as waiting for a UCD timer to run down. In both situations you can't perform any other actions, other than those not requiring stamina or those unaffected by a UCD.

Outside of a party situation where you're engaging mobs of appropriate rank the combat system varies greatly from when you're with a fully organized party. The differences are too great to even make a comparison thats what you don't understand. Even as a pugilist tanking NMs you will see stamina issues. Haymaker II, Jarring Strike II, are near useless on a NM they're just TP sinks because you will mostly likely miss and they do piss poor dmg and can't stack into BRs. Even our R50 weapon skill Simian Thrash is worthless in a NM hunting group. As a pugilist your man threat generation comes from how fast and often you hit (this is still in testing but we've narrowed it down to either how often you hit or how many criticals you land or both).

Yes you're right in a solo situation most people won't see an issue with the stamina bar at all in fact it works out very smoothly and it won't hamper your actions. During long battles only the opposite is true. That is all I've felt like I've typed the same stuff for three posts if you can't understand the reasoning here then you just need to go find out yourself.