implementing new jobs

[thelastwarden]

warning slightly ranty

I see too many posts asking for new jobs branching from existing classes. we need to get away from this idea.
a lot of people have 50's and the second SE releases a new job ppl will already have it at max level. I don't want drk to be a war but have have 5 different abilities. for me, part of the fun is starting from scratch. ppl will spend 2 hours getting the new skills and af armor and I hope you learned the job by then. well you probably did because it only has 5 different skills. where's the fun in that? I want new jobs to be as different as possible from the existing ones.
please, can we all agree new jobs must come with new classes as well? I hate the idea of new job = a couple new abilities.

ok that was very ranty... sorry

[Deusteele]

No. I don't need to spend 50 hours farming FATES or 60 hours killing crabs to learn my job.

While I admit that there are issues with the current implementation of class abilities; personally they should have class actions stop at 30 and had only job skills after. How many "Hit they with the pointy end" skills do we really need.

[MartaDemireux]

I said it in another thread but it basically boils down to the casual players. The game has more casual than hardcore players. If a player levels 1 class to 50 but only can fill 1 role, they're likely not going to get much endgame done in the amount of time they can play. If they can fill 2 roles however, the amount of content they can do increases dramatically.

It doesn't take much to learn a role/class/job. That's why we have Guildhests really. They're a crash-course in learning.

It's also a lot less time, money and work to add to existing classes than to make entirely new classes. The extra time/money they have can then be spent on making better endgame for us to actually do and hopefully enjoy.

There's already one class that has 2 jobs as well and it works out very well for it. Both jobs are entirely unique from one another even though they both use pets. It's all in what the job brings to the class. Other classes could follow the same and should in my opinion. For example, MRD gets some attacks that are fine and dandy on their own but under Defiance from WAR they become altered/buffed. If WAR was given a DPS option, the same abilities could be altered in a different way or they could choose to alter other existing abilities.

I'm sorry to say it thelastwarden, but you're in the minority when it comes to enjoying the leveling process. The majority of us find it just as boring as spamming WP but at least with WP we're getting tomes/gear/gil.

Edit: It's also better to think of "job" as "skill tree" since that is what it really is. It's a specialized role of the class.

[Tzain]

My money is on jobs being treated as sub-roles. Like how two tanks will tactically separate into Main Tank and Off Tank. Or how Scholars and White Mages synergize well in that one is reactive and the other Proactive.

I think the Arcanist is going to prove to be an exception to the rule, with a sister class having a DPS job and an Off Tank job. (I bet Monk for that.)

In fact, ill call it like this.
Gladiator = Main Tank/Off Tank
Marauder = Off Tank/ Main Tank
Pugilist = DPS/OffTank
Lancer = DPS/Debuff
Archer = Buffs/DPS
Arcanist = DPS/Proactive heals
Conjurer = Reactive heals/ Proactive heals

Of course, I could always be completely wrong. That's half the fun of this sort of mental exercise.

[Gamemako]

My money is on jobs being treated as sub-roles. Like how two tanks will tactically separate into Main Tank and Off Tank.

Doubtful. There is no room for "off-tank" in a game with 4-player content. (And really, PGL as anything-tank?)

I think most second jobs will be role changes. It is difficult to differentiate two jobs with the same role with how much they ultimately share. A few possibilities would be:

GLA (tank) -> Dark Knight (DPS), Mystic Knight (buff/support)
MRD (tank) -> Berserker (DPS), Viking (debuff/support), Dark Knight (DPS)
PGL (DPS) -> White Monk (healer), Dancer (buff/support)
LNC (DPS) -> Templar (tank), Machinist (buff/support)
ARC (DPS) -> Ranger (DPS)
CNJ (healer) -> Geomancer (DPS), Oracle (buff/support)
THM (DPS) -> Time Mage (debuff/support)

[thelastwarden]

"I'm sorry to say it thelastwarden, but you're in the minority when it comes to enjoying the leveling process. The majority of us find it just as boring as spamming WP but at least with WP we're getting tomes/gear/gil."

sounds like you don't enjoy levelling or endgame....there's always crafting I guess. the business model behind an mmo is to keep people playing as long as possible and usually means starting at level 1

[Tzain]

Doubtful. There is no room for "off-tank" in a game with 4-player content. (And really, PGL as anything-tank?)

I think most second jobs will be role changes. It is difficult to differentiate two jobs with the same role with how much they ultimately share. A few possibilities would be:

Sub roles mean nothing unless there is an overlap and the only time you get an overlap is when there are more than 4 players (in the case of tanks)
So essentially, if GLA had a Main tank and an off tank, both would be tanks in 4 man content and only become Main and Off in 8 man or more. Which is exactly what's happening now.

Take Ifrit, if you have two GLA in the group, one is tanking and the other is interrupting. In this case the "Off Tank" is playing that part in the tactics. So if you wanted to make an off tank role flavored to GLA, you might want to build it with a heavy interruption and control factor. This way when tanking, they work by keeping the special (cast bar) attacks directed at them to a minimum. This of course means that the tank in question would have to be on the squishier side of the spectrum for balance, thus making them ineffective in the main tank role. Which of course is fine and dandy considering the GLA has equal access to both Main and Off Tank jobs. And considering the off tank job would not have automatic access to "Shield Oath" is completely possible.

Hope that illustrates what I mean better.

the business model behind an mmo is to keep people playing as long as possible and usually means starting at level 1

QFT

[Gamemako]

So essentially, if GLA had a Main tank and an off tank, both would be tanks in 4 man content and only become Main and Off in 8 man or more. Which is exactly what's happening now.

No. Stun-bot is not a tanking role. You could just as easily have a BTN be your stun-bot "off-tank" if it were gifted a GCD stun ability, but it would still not be able to tank at all.

[MartaDemireux]

sounds like you don't enjoy levelling or endgame....there's always crafting I guess. the business model behind an mmo is to keep people playing as long as possible and usually means starting at level 1

It's hard to enjoy a repetitive grind. The more time you have to play the game, the more you'll realize how little there is currently. FFXIV is also not following your idea of a successful business model as it is possible to get 1-50 in 3 days. The actual business model is not about keeping people playing as long as possible but bringing them back monthly or bi-monthly with new content. They don't care if you play one day of your subscription or 30 days, as long as you buy that subscription.

[thelastwarden]

snip

the "50 in 3 days" group of players is much smaller compared to everyone else. I think players that dedicated will stay subbed much longer than I will. I'd bet money on the new classes/jobs starting at lvl 1 for everyone. if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it.