Nostalgia

[Reslin]

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.



I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

Except it has to do with nostalgia. 150 people is a lot of people. They also did pour a lot of money into the game and for it's time it was the most graphical mmo out. It was also released during a time when glitches were common place in mmo's (look at falling under the world in WoW, the loot bug, and quests that simply wouldn't work.) Glitches were a complaint in that game but so was the archaic leveling system. Using nostalgia as an argument is a valid argument. There's a reason the term rose colored glasses exist. People are referring to the fact that people forget the more frustrating aspects of some of these older games. However, some people are aware of them and still prefer them. The problem is these people are in the minority. If you notice the majority of the player base strives to hit level cap as soon as possible. Even if the games were more grindy/took longer to level in these people would still strive to hit cap as soon as possible.. it would just frustrate them to a greater degree. People are already complaining about fetch and kill quests. People are already getting sick of them (but so far no one has presented a real alternative) if the only method of leveling was long "killing mobs." that would just exacerbate the problem but as it stands if a developer comes up with a means to put an end to kill/fetch quests people might turn around and be adamant at keeping such things out of future mmos.

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work. It's easier to remember the good times than the bad in most situations especially if the game is your first love but maybe they are wrong. Maybe you relished these things after-all they don't know you but it's popular opinion even by the people who made these games that most people don't enjoy that kind of gaming anymore. Not enough to be really profitable making a game devoted to it.

Yes I'm aware I repeated my point twice. That has to do with re-writing some of it due to the inane post limit.

[Aegis]

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work.

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly' That is one person telling another that they couldn't possibly like what the less impressed person didn't like.

[Reslin]

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly'

Except nostalgia does exist. Even if you could play vanilla FF11 and still enjoy it 100% doesn't mean that nostalgia simply doesn't exist. The word exists for a reason even if you are the exception. I typically will tell someone they're being nostalgic and point out the faults. If the person denies those faults from existing they're being blinded by nostalgia. If they acknowledge those faults but claim that it gave the game more character and it's partly why they enjoyed the game then my comment about them being nostalgic isn't valid. Instead, I'd point out that their opinion isn't shared by the majority.

[Aegis]

I typically will tell someone they're being nostalgic and point out the faults.

You couldn't simply point out the faults without making the assumption of nostalgia? You don't know if they are being nostalgic. It's incredibly patronising and rude.

[Reslin]

You couldn't simply point out the faults without making the assumption of nostalgia? You don't know if they are being nostalgic. It's incredibly patronising and rude.

Nostalgia is the most common cause of people's arguments. Take this for an example:

Every new generation the older generation talks about how much their time was better. Many will fight vehemently that it's not nostalgia. Their time was better. The youths have become more rebellious, people are nastier, the music isn't as good, and the mmo's in the past were better. People said this about the 00's, 90's, 80's, and so on. Each time the new generation saying that THEIR time was better. You're repeating the same old story here. You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today but even the devs believe the mmos of the now have been the result of "progress." It is nostalgia if you can't enjoy what's in the now because you're too stuck on how it was done in the past. Especially if you can't appreciate the quality of life achievements that have been made since then.

No, I'm not saying this is how you are. It's merely an example of how nostalgia is very relevant. The whole debate about how mmo's used to have a massive grind to level reminds me of the joking comments of "Back in my day we had to walk up snow covered hills for 8 miles." If that was true there's a reason we no longer have to do that now. (The if that was true is in response to the snowy hills.) I don't want to walk 8 miles to get somewhere in the snow nor do I want to spend several months killing one mob at a time in a full group with the knowledge that one moron can ruin hours of progress/time.

[Aegis]

Nostalgia is the most common cause of people's arguments. Take this for an example:

Every new generation the older generation talks about how much their time was better. Many will fight vehemently that it's not nostalgia. Their time was better. The youths have become more rebellious, people are nastier, the music isn't as good, and the mmo's in the past were better. People said this about the 00's, 90's, 80's, and so on. Each time the new generation saying that THEIR time was better. You're repeating the same old story here. You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today but even the devs believe the mmos of the now have been the result of "progress." It is nostalgia if you can't enjoy what's in the now because you're too stuck on how it was done in the past. Especially if you can't appreciate the quality of life achievements that have been made since then.

No, I'm not saying this is how you are. It's merely an example of how nostalgia is very relevant. The whole debate about how mmo's used to have a massive grind to level reminds me of the joking comments of "Back in my day we had to walk up snow covered hills for 8 miles." If that was true there's a reason we no longer have to do that now.

Indeed: Socrates:
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

However, if someone says they preferred Dexter season 7 to Season 8 and you disagree do you automatically follow up with "No you don't, you're being nostalgic. Season 7 had so-and-so faults?"

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

[Reslin]

Indeed, one of Plato's texts were about how the youth of today (back then) were terrorising the streets and showing no respect to their elders and how it would be the end of society.

However, if someone says they preferred Dexter season 7 to Season 8 and you disagree do you automatically follow up with "No you don't, you're being nostalgic. Season 7 had so-and-so faults?"

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

No it doesn't but when you find yourself completely outnumbered and even when those who designed these old school mmorpgs in the first place no longer believe the concept to be valid it's hard to ignore this train of thought. I mean, even Everquest moved past it. Everquest 2 took on a more wow like model. Everquest next is trying something completely different. Final Fantasy 11 ditched it's 2003 model. FF14 threw most of those elements in the fire in favor of a more modern approach. Note I am not saying you are WRONG for preferring the old school style. I'm saying that your opinion is UNPOPULAR. Aka outdated. There's still people out there who prefer outdated stuff. There's even a market for people like that out there but they're not the norm nor are they the majority. I still listen to classic rock but that isn't the music that is popular today.

If I was incredible with a musical instrument and had amazing singing potential I'd do much better if I pursued something more mainstream.

P.S. I just noticed I don't fit your criteria in your original post. I've said more than "You're being nostalgic." I'm still here debating with you. :P

[Hyrist]

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

Conversely, just because someone agrees with you, does not imply that they are not.


This is a non-sequetor argument. When someone refers to FFXI in positive terms, especially past or outdated systems of the game, then indeed they are being nostalgic. Nostalgia by its blunt definition is the fond recollection of one's past experiences. This in and of itself is not a negative. Being blinded by your nostalgia, however, is.

If someone is reminiscing about their past, that is nostalgia. It matters not if they disagree or not. I have nostalgic feelings about FFXI too, pretty much every FFXI player is likely to. The difference is constantly citing it as a positive and as your reasoning for mechanics can, and is likely influenced by nostalgia, which is why the counter-argument is stated so frequently.

Tropes and Stereotypes exist due to the frequency of the assumption actually being correct far more often than being incorrect. We as humans object to being stereotyped at the same time we do it to ourselves for the sake of unity and community. We contradict ourselves constantly.