Nostalgia

[Reslin]

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.



'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes. No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

[Aegis]

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes.

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.

No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

[Reslin]

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.



I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

Except it has to do with nostalgia. 150 people is a lot of people. They also did pour a lot of money into the game and for it's time it was the most graphical mmo out. It was also released during a time when glitches were common place in mmo's (look at falling under the world in WoW, the loot bug, and quests that simply wouldn't work.) Glitches were a complaint in that game but so was the archaic leveling system. Using nostalgia as an argument is a valid argument. There's a reason the term rose colored glasses exist. People are referring to the fact that people forget the more frustrating aspects of some of these older games. However, some people are aware of them and still prefer them. The problem is these people are in the minority. If you notice the majority of the player base strives to hit level cap as soon as possible. Even if the games were more grindy/took longer to level in these people would still strive to hit cap as soon as possible.. it would just frustrate them to a greater degree. People are already complaining about fetch and kill quests. People are already getting sick of them (but so far no one has presented a real alternative) if the only method of leveling was long "killing mobs." that would just exacerbate the problem but as it stands if a developer comes up with a means to put an end to kill/fetch quests people might turn around and be adamant at keeping such things out of future mmos.

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work. It's easier to remember the good times than the bad in most situations especially if the game is your first love but maybe they are wrong. Maybe you relished these things after-all they don't know you but it's popular opinion even by the people who made these games that most people don't enjoy that kind of gaming anymore. Not enough to be really profitable making a game devoted to it.

Yes I'm aware I repeated my point twice. That has to do with re-writing some of it due to the inane post limit.

[Aegis]

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work.

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly' That is one person telling another that they couldn't possibly like what the less impressed person didn't like.

[Reslin]

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly'

Except nostalgia does exist. Even if you could play vanilla FF11 and still enjoy it 100% doesn't mean that nostalgia simply doesn't exist. The word exists for a reason even if you are the exception. I typically will tell someone they're being nostalgic and point out the faults. If the person denies those faults from existing they're being blinded by nostalgia. If they acknowledge those faults but claim that it gave the game more character and it's partly why they enjoyed the game then my comment about them being nostalgic isn't valid. Instead, I'd point out that their opinion isn't shared by the majority.

[Aegis]

I typically will tell someone they're being nostalgic and point out the faults.

You couldn't simply point out the faults without making the assumption of nostalgia? You don't know if they are being nostalgic. It's incredibly patronising and rude.

[Reslin]

You couldn't simply point out the faults without making the assumption of nostalgia? You don't know if they are being nostalgic. It's incredibly patronising and rude.

Nostalgia is the most common cause of people's arguments. Take this for an example:

Every new generation the older generation talks about how much their time was better. Many will fight vehemently that it's not nostalgia. Their time was better. The youths have become more rebellious, people are nastier, the music isn't as good, and the mmo's in the past were better. People said this about the 00's, 90's, 80's, and so on. Each time the new generation saying that THEIR time was better. You're repeating the same old story here. You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today but even the devs believe the mmos of the now have been the result of "progress." It is nostalgia if you can't enjoy what's in the now because you're too stuck on how it was done in the past. Especially if you can't appreciate the quality of life achievements that have been made since then.

No, I'm not saying this is how you are. It's merely an example of how nostalgia is very relevant. The whole debate about how mmo's used to have a massive grind to level reminds me of the joking comments of "Back in my day we had to walk up snow covered hills for 8 miles." If that was true there's a reason we no longer have to do that now. (The if that was true is in response to the snowy hills.) I don't want to walk 8 miles to get somewhere in the snow nor do I want to spend several months killing one mob at a time in a full group with the knowledge that one moron can ruin hours of progress/time.