Nostalgia

[Aegis]

Are people really going around screaming "Nostalgia!" without any supporting statements behind it?

Generally, if I ever use the term then it will include all the things that were previously overlooked from the original post (thus why nostalgia is at play).

The way I see it:
My Con's match your Pro's = "Stop Liking what I don't like"
My Con's were not included with your Pro's = "Nostalgia"

Just taking posts from the thread which triggered my little campaign (names removed, I'm not calling anyone out, here)

TBH you remember a different FF XI community than many other people.

All of those things definitely happened in FF XI. My contention is that the reason you remember it differently is nostalgia.

Edit: and by "those things" I mean the mean attacks on other players, elitist tearing down their gear, assaulting a low-skill or new player for not knowing things, etc. etc.

First-love-syndrome.

And to all those supports him, I present you:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ostalgiaFilter
Nostalgia Goggles

You mean the self conceited, insular community that heavily discriminated against anyone that didn't have their same views? That still pine for a game model that it's own developers killed off 3 years ago?

It was special because of nostalgia, that's it. The greatest threat to FFXIV future is importing the hostile, selfish community that plagued FFXI.

Nostalgia.

ITT: Selective memory at its finest.

Surprising how people forgot about jobs being radically excluded from parties (like DRG) or all the stealing, drama and bullshit in sky or Dragons Aery.
FFXI was as toxic as FFXIV, you just have a big nostalgia.

Anyone know where I can buy these nostalgia goggles and deluded mind cap?

I haven't cropped any of these quotes (apart from removing a picture from one). People are literally dropping into a thread saying "you remember it wrong" and leaving that as their considered rebuttal.

[Velhart]

I love Blue Mage, but how would we make that job work within the context of our current battle system?

That is a very good question, it is very hard to implement a job like this based on how the game's system works. Blue Mage would obviously be a job of a certain new class, meaning it would only get five additional abilities added to the overall class. The fun behind Blue Mage is to obtain all the spells from enemies. Am I saying BLU wouldn't work? No, I am sure there is some clever approach you can take, but I am definitely not seeing it. You can't have one job using a giant table of abilities when everyone else only gets five. If a BLU does some how make it into the game, don't expect it to work like a classic BLU.

On a general note to this thread, if you have a nostalgic idea going on, its all good, just better bring in a good argument that it would in fact improve the game without hindering it's core aspect, which I see people do a lot. If I am nostalgic of anything I want to see in this game, it is jobs like Samurai, Dark Knight, and Corsair. Of course with their own unique FFXIV approach to them.

[Reslin]

I've seen a lot of threads referencing XI, XIV (pre ARR) and I see the word Nostalgia being bandied about to explain away why people have such warm feelings towards systems, communities, features etc from previous games.

It isn't a "Stop liking what I don't like." There's systems that are no longer used in mmo's for a reason. They might like it but they're no longer relevant when it comes to modern mmos and if you try to implement them in a modern mmo it will fail. Which means there's clear evidence that certain things ARE bad even if they like it. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean that it can't be bad.

[Aegis]

There's a large scope problem here. The game's direction steps away from large skill libraries as a whole, and BLU is the very incarnation of a skill library.

Here are some of the obstacles I see, even though I want the job to be implemented:

- The game defines set roles, where BLU's library offers it to be versatile in many usually. How is this impasse resolved?

As is Arcanist, It can tank, heal and DPS very effectively. Summoner can also tank and DPS (4xSMN WP runs are awesome). Just put it down as DD.

- Blue Mage is by definition, a Job class, which limits it to one job ability every five levels. It also restricts the Job within the current arc scope of a Class, that could be something entirely different when fitting under another 'Job'.

The Class could be 'Flayer' (was in the orginal XIV dats, never used). To be fair, Arcanist summons carby, something that no other non-SMN class had ever been able to do before.

- Going off of the Scope of a class. BLU defined itself fairly strongly in 11 and in many ways previous games as a Sword-Mage. Sword already exists in the game and has little in the form flexibility to work with a Job that is inherently bestial. It would make sense to make a class that branches Blue mage and Beastmaster together, but how would that work in terms of weapons if reconstructing the Armory System's fundamentals is non-negotiable?

In V it had mage weapons, In VIII it was a whip, In X it was a Lance, in X-2 it was a gun-mage. Only XI afaik tied Blue Mage to Swords (and Staves if you were healing/nuking)

So Blue Mage has to be balanced against Duty Finder and the Class/Job system as well as the Armory in general. That makes it very difficult to capture the heart of the class, though I personally like the idea of "Additional Skills" as you described, but that may also cause some beef with other Deciples of Magic and classes as they lost a lot of spell-casting ability when the system changed over in 1.19.

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.

It isn't a "Stop liking what I don't like." There's systems that are no longer used in mmo's for a reason. They might like it but they're no longer relevant when it comes to modern mmos and if you try to implement them in a modern mmo it will fail. Which means there's clear evidence that certain things ARE bad even if they like it. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean that it can't be bad.

'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

[Codek]

Just taking posts from the thread which triggered my little campaign (names removed, I'm not calling anyone out, here)

I haven't cropped any of these quotes (apart from removing a picture from one). People are literally dropping into a thread saying "you remember it wrong" and leaving that as their considered rebuttal.

Seemed like most of those involved a discussion on MMO communities. I would imagine that would be on par with scientists discussing what elements are formed from supernova nucleosynthesis from two different exploding stars (thinking that they are the same). It's not pretty to say the least...

Everyone experiences a different community in MMO's so that's something I'm not even touching in terms of nostalgia.

[Reslin]

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.



'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes. No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

[Kazamoto]

Reslin, I think you need to reread my previous wall of text.
And I think Aegis said recent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes
Vanguard, which I had never heard of, came out in early 2007, right after WoW's Burning Crusade and FFXI's Wings of the Goddess.

From the Wiki article it sounds a lot like FFXIV 1.0.

No one is saying we want FFXI-2, but many people are saying that NOTHING from FFXI should, or has been used.

I listed a number of features from FFXI that would fit into the current framework of FFXIV, or type of content that would work with current game mechanics.
---

Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

This, right here, is the problem. This is a 'the world today' and 'kids these days' problem.

The point of an adventure. Is the adventure. It is about the journey, not the destination.

Now its about blasting through the story, trash, etc, and burning the boss as fast as possible to get the best gear to... what end? When does the fun start?

Electronic RPG's grew from pen and paper RPG's. DnD wasn't fun because you filled out papers, and studied books.

It was (and still is damnit) fun, because you and your friends went on an adventure, kill some goblins, save a village, all with your friends.

You can't be a dick and yell at someone for being a noob in your DnD game, he wont buy pizza anymore.

Early MMO's like FFXI and EQ forced people to work together, make bonds with people. Sure, you had to spend hours in the dunes leveling before it got good, but the people you meet and talked with along the way made it worth while.

In a modern MMO, there is no need for community. Sure, there are features to support working together, but they aren't needed.
You can just use raid/duty finder, group up with some people, and do what ever you want, chances are, you will never see them again.
I dont even talk in DF groups anymore beyond a hello at the beginning. Why should I? I'll never see them again, and if they are good, no need to talk. If they are bad, I can just wait for the first one to rage quit then find a new group.

When i tried WoW i got to the mid-high 40's, and never spoke to anyone. Just ran around doing quests, random pvp, etc. There was plenty being said in barrens chat, but I had no interest in that toxicity.

We live in the world of instant gratification being valued higher than true satisfaction, the world of fck you, i got mine, and hte world of 0 empathy for any other player, because fck 'em.

[Aegis]

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes.

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.

No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

[Reslin]

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.



I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

Except it has to do with nostalgia. 150 people is a lot of people. They also did pour a lot of money into the game and for it's time it was the most graphical mmo out. It was also released during a time when glitches were common place in mmo's (look at falling under the world in WoW, the loot bug, and quests that simply wouldn't work.) Glitches were a complaint in that game but so was the archaic leveling system. Using nostalgia as an argument is a valid argument. There's a reason the term rose colored glasses exist. People are referring to the fact that people forget the more frustrating aspects of some of these older games. However, some people are aware of them and still prefer them. The problem is these people are in the minority. If you notice the majority of the player base strives to hit level cap as soon as possible. Even if the games were more grindy/took longer to level in these people would still strive to hit cap as soon as possible.. it would just frustrate them to a greater degree. People are already complaining about fetch and kill quests. People are already getting sick of them (but so far no one has presented a real alternative) if the only method of leveling was long "killing mobs." that would just exacerbate the problem but as it stands if a developer comes up with a means to put an end to kill/fetch quests people might turn around and be adamant at keeping such things out of future mmos.

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work. It's easier to remember the good times than the bad in most situations especially if the game is your first love but maybe they are wrong. Maybe you relished these things after-all they don't know you but it's popular opinion even by the people who made these games that most people don't enjoy that kind of gaming anymore. Not enough to be really profitable making a game devoted to it.

Yes I'm aware I repeated my point twice. That has to do with re-writing some of it due to the inane post limit.

[Aegis]

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work.

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly' That is one person telling another that they couldn't possibly like what the less impressed person didn't like.