Nostalgia

[Hyrist]

So, you argue down one generalization with another?
Anyone else see the heaping logical flaw in this?

When I call out nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, I'm pointing out that someone's fond memories tend to overlook the parts of the game that were widely considered flawed or bad, not necessarily shared by the individual, but something the game was criticized on the outside for. That's not to say that individual is not entitled to their opinion, it is to be aware of how much or how little that opinion is shared in the context of the genre and its populace.

Example:

I like roleplayng. I've done it for years and often my memories of good times in roleplaying overshadow the bad. However, a lot of people in MMOs and other fields do not share this ambition, and even have negative views on roleplaying. I am aware of this and accept my preference as niche. Knowing such, why would I make a statement to imply that roleplaying is better than not roleplaying and insist it be a mandatory implementation in the game when it is clearly not as popular as I would want it to be?

Instead of making that brass, blanket statement that is inherently inflammatory and instead try to work with the ideas in a method that would be beneficiary for as many as possible.

FFXI's nostalgia is not the only one I would criticize for being the only ones to take inspiration from. We need to have a wide sample pool, but lately we hang up one one or two titles for inspiration, and that's bad.

[Aegis]

So, you argue down one generalization with another?
Anyone else see the heaping logical flaw in this?

I take your point (and I am considering removing that kid and just replacing it with text because frankly, he disturbs me) but I would hold that my generalisation is correct in that you cannot cry 'Nostalgia' on anyone's opinion in any circumstance, unless you have somehow found someway to prove that that person did not feel how they say they felt at the time.

When I call out nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, I'm pointing out that someone's fond memories tend to overlook the parts of the game that were widely considered flawed or bad,

Perhaps in that person's opinion they weren't flawed or bad? Or perhaps they have taken the flaws into account and still reached the conclusion that it was great. Just because you don't agree with it, or the community in general doesn't agree with it doesn't make that person's opinion any less reliable. Also, you seem to be attributing those who have fond memories of something as being absolutists that may not be deserved. Saying "The community in XI was the best I ever experienced" does not mean that person believes each and every member of that community was great and there were no idiots.

[Sixmp]

I loved FFXI for one reason and one reason only ... BST. The ability to solo level was just great. FFXIV ARR solo levelling is boring compared to the excitement of that.

I personally think MMO's should come with the ability to solo all content as well as the ability to do it in parties. That way people who prefer to solo things can complete everything.

InB4 but MMO = Parties. No MMO = World full of people to interact with.

[Kazamoto]

How far back does something have to be for one to be nostalgic about it? I mean, there are some people who have active accounts in both ffxi and ffxiv right now.

How can they be 'looking back with rose tinted glasses' if they are still playing it?

-Note: I played FFXI from US launch on a PS2 until just before SoA. (I was playing EvE at the time with some real life friends and I only allow myself 1 MMO at a time).
I have also played:
DDO
WoW
EvE
City of Heros
Warhammer Online
Rift
Guild Wars





Did FFXI have flaws?
Sure early game pacing was dreadfully slow.
The learning curve early on was massively punishing, and it was possible to lose a whole day's worth of progress.
The UI wasn't very friendly, and a menu driven MMO may not have been the best choice, but it definitely seemed like a FF game.
No party? No progrees. Make one small mistake on the last floor in a Promy? Sucks to be you, there goes 3 hours of work.
Were you a Ranger early on? Here's a nerf to make you pointless except monster hunting.
Monk early on? Here's a nerf to make you just another average dd until Salvage comes out.
Dragoon? I hope you like to sit LFG.

As for the community? That all depends on when and who.
There was always a fair amount of JP-Onry out there.
The NA crowd? Mostly good, over 10 years and many many linkshells, I can still say that.

Were there bad ones? Sure, most HNM ls had strict requirements, but end game was hard then, and you had to work for it.
Exp party? I can think of maybe a handful of time it fell apart over someones gear, but that was usually caused by the under geared player saying "It's just a subjob"

But, shout in town and a dozen people would offer you help, or at least advice.

Never, in 10 years of FFXI did I ever see a recruiting shout for an event that demanded a certain level of gear.
Never, in 10 years of FFXI did I have someone leave a party in an assault or Promy or anything because player x's gear wasn't good enough.

As for the arguments about skillchains doing less, that was true for single element skillchains, or wrong element skillchains sure. But, if you matched your elements and had a mage to magic burst? easy peasy.
In the days of ToAU, I used to run 'old school' parties on Trolls where we would have a skill chain and a double magic burst and kill trolls faster than colibri. But, it required skill and timing.

FFXI is not the game it was, Seekers has basically destroyed all old content by totally ignoring power creep on items. Even in the days of Abyssea, at least things were still balanced outside of abyssea, you just didnt have to grind for exp anymore.
I wouldnt want to go back now, its not the same. And that is not a nostalgic looking back, that is a current summery after seeing the game as it is.

I think there are many features from FFXI that SE could rip off directly for 14, but the combat system is not one of them.

There is a level of skill and dedication that FFXI required that while I miss it, I don't have the time for it, as now I have to worry about my Career, wife, and mortgage. All things I did not have when FFXI first came out.

But, I think FF14 would benefit from (in no particular order):

FFXI AH System.
Puppermaster class
Pankration.
Nyzul Isle
BCNM/KSNM/ZNM
Puppetmaster class
Moblin Maze Mongers
Gambling tables
Eco-Warrior


-
We are already getting, at some point:
Choco breeding
Moghouses
Gardening
Choco racing

[Aegis]

But, I think FF14 would benefit from *snip*

Blue mage
Blue mage
Blue mage
Blue mage
Blue mage
Blue mage
Blue mage
Blue mage

...and Beastmaster.

[Hyrist]

Perhaps in that person's opinion they weren't flawed or bad? Or perhaps they have taken the flaws into account and still reached the conclusion that it was great. Just because you don't agree with it, or the community in general doesn't agree with it doesn't make that person's opinion any less reliable. Also, you seem to be attributing those who have fond memories of something as being absolutists that may not be deserved. Saying "The community in XI was the best I ever experienced" does not mean that person believes each and every member of that community was great and there were no idiots.

Never said that, but I did say they need to take the time to view their options objectively and realize if and when they are in the minority. Defiantly declaring your opinion in a manner of which that lists it as sacrosanct, then hiding behind the all impenetrable veil of 'it's my opinion!' does not prevent it from being inherently rude, or unpopular to the silent majority.

Recognizing that position from the onset opens the door to discussion as to the inspiration and the ideas being malleable into a context that can be beneficiary for as many as possible. Instead of saying "Stop hating what I like!" or "Stop liking what I don't!"

The conversation should not go "This needs more FFXI! Less WoWZ!" The conversation should go "Hey, I like this mechanic, but I remember a lot of people not liking how it was implemented or what happened to it, how do we make it fit in FFXIV and how do we make it fun for more people?"

Kazamoto above makes a good example of what he liked and would like to see adapted. The conversation could go on from there.

Also...

Blue mage (x8)
...and Beastmaster.

I love Blue Mage, but how would we make that job work within the context of our current battle system?

[Codek]

Are people really going around screaming "Nostalgia!" without any supporting statements behind it?

Generally, if I ever use the term then it will include all the things that were previously overlooked from the original post (thus why nostalgia is at play).

The way I see it:
My Con's match your Pro's = "Stop Liking what I don't like"
My Con's were not included with your Pro's = "Nostalgia"

[Kazamoto]

Totally off topic, but use the same mechanic they use for 'additional' skills for BLU skills, as they level up they can select more from a larger list of options?

[Aegis]

Never said that, but I did say they need to take the time to view their options objectively and realize if and when they are in the minority. Defiantly declaring your opinion in a manner of which that lists it as sacrosanct, then hiding behind the all impenetrable veil of 'it's my opinion!' does not prevent it from being inherently rude, or unpopular to the silent majority.

Then by all means call them on it being rude, or unpopular (though you shouldn't refraid from giving your opinion just because you feel others won't agree with it) but don't say it's just nostalgia. I have no problem with someone criticizing my thoughts and opinions. The problem I have is with people assuming that I don't actually feel that way, it's just nostalgia clouding my judgment. It's very patronising. Also, I would be very cautious of claiming anything one way or another for a 'silent majority'.

Also...



I love Blue Mage, but how would we make that job work within the context of our current battle system?

Without derailing the thread too much ^^; I would say something along the lines of how Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar has been implemented. Where those jobs have three summon abilities that vary by which class/job you are on, BLU could have some Blue Magic abilities that vary by what you have absorbed.

Say for example you have the ability 'Lancet' (From FFX, I believe) and when you use it, your ability 'Blue Magic 1' will then correlate to an ability from the mob you are fighting. Use Lancet on another mob and it will fill your ability 'Blue Magic 2'. Once all your Blue Magic abilities are correlated with mob abilities, you would need to 'forget' an ability to free that slot up if you want to use a different spell.

Enemy abilities could have certain levels or tiers meaning they can only be set in one particular Blue Magic slot.

eg:

Blue Mage base class (Tamer maybe, or similar) ability list:
1: Whip Crack (yeah, my blue mages have whips). Single Target ability.
3: Lancet ( x% chance to absorb enemy ability for use with Blue Magic)
3: Blue Magic 1 (Can set Pollen, Bomb Toss, 100 Needles .... ). Combos with Whip Crack for enhanced potency
3: Amnesia 1(removes magic set Blue Magic 1)
5: Azure Affinity (Increases potency of next Blue Magic)
8: Eye Snap (Low damage ability with Blind)
10: Blue Magic 2 (Can set White Wind, Impish incantations, double Strike ....) Combos with Blue Magic 1
10: Amnesia 2
15: Azure Veil (Makes next Blue Magic AOE)
25: Blue Magic 3: (Can set 1000 Needles, Explosion, some kind of knock back move, Bad Breath)
25: Amnesia 3

etc etc, you could have traits to increase learning chance, stuff like that.

Nb the above is just something I came up with off the top of my head as an example, so don't criticise that it sucks because, well, I know.

[Hyrist]

Totally off topic, but use the same mechanic they use for 'additional' skills for BLU skills, as they level up they can select more from a larger list of options?

There's a large scope problem here. The game's direction steps away from large skill libraries as a whole, and BLU is the very incarnation of a skill library.

Here are some of the obstacles I see, even though I want the job to be implemented:

- The game defines set roles, where BLU's library offers it to be versatile in many usually. How is this impasse resolved?

- Blue Mage is by definition, a Job class, which limits it to one job ability every five levels. It also restricts the Job within the current arc scope of a Class, that could be something entirely different when fitting under another 'Job'.

- Going off of the Scope of a class. BLU defined itself fairly strongly in 11 and in many ways previous games as a Sword-Mage. Sword already exists in the game and has little in the form flexibility to work with a Job that is inherently bestial. It would make sense to make a class that branches Blue mage and Beastmaster together, but how would that work in terms of weapons if reconstructing the Armory System's fundamentals is non-negotiable?

So Blue Mage has to be balanced against Duty Finder and the Class/Job system as well as the Armory in general. That makes it very difficult to capture the heart of the class, though I personally like the idea of "Additional Skills" as you described, but that may also cause some beef with other Deciples of Magic and classes as they lost a lot of spell-casting ability when the system changed over in 1.19.