Nostalgia

[Yamimarik]

/snip

Again "your opinion" and actually mine too. I didn't like the skill chains just because I main-ed SMN in XI and SC's were very much useless to me most of the time. Again my opinion and yours. But to others? They might actually have enjoyed that system and THEY personally found it good. That's their opinion and how they felt. It's not nostalgia, now if I say "OMG I miss SC's so much! It was so much fun!" that's nostalgia cause I already stated I think the SC system was kinda bleh...

OPINION =/= NOSTALGIA

[shadowrell_d-_-b]

ah the wonders of the internet, who knew ppl could have different opinions!

on topic ones opinion should at the very least be respected, I think the problem is many taking it as them having a "those were the good ole day's" feeling when referring to nostalgic things from older games.

as most have come to agree we have seen many improvements (and screw ups)

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

It's not nostalgia. It's PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIKE STUFF YOU DON'T. Why is it so hard to understand such a common thing? Everyone is different. That doesn't make it wrong, but some people have the need to get into threads and even if they don't have anything nice to say they shit on the threads anyways.

@ Yamimarik: Yes, that's the same reason the game lost its appeal to me.

[Raminax]

Nostalgia usually has the quirk of making people forget that while, yes, the lobster 2 years ago was excellent, you still ended up wringing out half of your internal organs when you ate it.

Then again, opinions are opinions. I'll respectfully disagree with everyone if I don't see it their way. :x

[Sunarie]

I think the Nostalgia word gets tossed around when people appear to generalize that FFXI is better than other games on the market because of things that weren't really true when you closely examined them. For instance, the community thread... it really does come off as a definitive "FFXI had the best community of any game".. when in reality, most (at least any I've played) have toxics and helpfuls in their communities. That experience will vary on the individual and shouldn't really be a generalized statement. When people say something like "FFXI didn't have the derogatory elitism that MMOs today have." .. that's not true, and that's probably nostalgia talking. Many people's experiences have shown that it did indeed have that, to a pretty good degree from the experiences I've read. A better way to word it would be to say that you were lucky you were part of LS/FC/group that didn't do that stuff.

It's similar to me looking back at Shadowbane (my first MMO) with fond memories.

[Aegis]

I think the Nostalgia word gets tossed around when people appear to generalize that FFXI is better than other games on the market because of things that weren't really true when you closely examined them. For instance, the community thread... it really does come off as a definitive "FFXI had the best community of any game".. when in reality, most (at least any I've played) have toxics and helpfuls in their communities. That experience will vary on the individual and shouldn't really be a generalized statement. When people say something like "FFXI didn't have the derogatory elitism that MMOs today have." .. that's not true, and that's probably nostalgia talking. Many people's experiences have shown that it did indeed have that, to a pretty good degree from the experiences I've read. A better way to word it would be to say that you were lucky you were part of LS/FC/group that didn't do that stuff.

It's similar to me looking back at Shadowbane (my first MMO) with fond memories.

Yes, I will agree that some people are taking their own experience and generalising it to everyone (on both sides, including you). But I will throw in my $0.02 and say that while their were elitist upper-tier endgame shells, they were, in my experience, drowned out by the JP player who helped our entire dunes party get their magicked skulls, the NA players who used to regularly join prommy shouts just to help players on their way through CoP, the guy who lent me a bronze bed for the mog house quest, the linkshell who helped me through my LBs... the list truly goes on. I think this kind of thing is what people refer to when they preach about the community.

Also, the elitism I experienced in XI upper-tier shells is no worse than you currently see in Mor Dhona shouts: "LFM Titan. Die and you will be kicked" sound familiar.

/I know, I know, damning with faint praise.

Colibri weren't the only mobs to exp. If people really wanted to do skillchains, or they were so much valid, they could exp on something like marids or diremites.

If exp were boosted by 100% for every step of a Skillchain/MB you could bet no-one would've done tp-burns. You can't base how much people enjoy a process on how many people are doing it when there is a competing system with better rewards.

[Ri_ri]

Why are you so offended by this?

These are the ARR forums anyway, why you people keep bringing XI and how great it was? This is way more disrespectful than saying that your love for that game is misguided by nostalgia.

[Hyrist]

So, you argue down one generalization with another?
Anyone else see the heaping logical flaw in this?

When I call out nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, I'm pointing out that someone's fond memories tend to overlook the parts of the game that were widely considered flawed or bad, not necessarily shared by the individual, but something the game was criticized on the outside for. That's not to say that individual is not entitled to their opinion, it is to be aware of how much or how little that opinion is shared in the context of the genre and its populace.

Example:

I like roleplayng. I've done it for years and often my memories of good times in roleplaying overshadow the bad. However, a lot of people in MMOs and other fields do not share this ambition, and even have negative views on roleplaying. I am aware of this and accept my preference as niche. Knowing such, why would I make a statement to imply that roleplaying is better than not roleplaying and insist it be a mandatory implementation in the game when it is clearly not as popular as I would want it to be?

Instead of making that brass, blanket statement that is inherently inflammatory and instead try to work with the ideas in a method that would be beneficiary for as many as possible.

FFXI's nostalgia is not the only one I would criticize for being the only ones to take inspiration from. We need to have a wide sample pool, but lately we hang up one one or two titles for inspiration, and that's bad.

[Aegis]

So, you argue down one generalization with another?
Anyone else see the heaping logical flaw in this?

I take your point (and I am considering removing that kid and just replacing it with text because frankly, he disturbs me) but I would hold that my generalisation is correct in that you cannot cry 'Nostalgia' on anyone's opinion in any circumstance, unless you have somehow found someway to prove that that person did not feel how they say they felt at the time.

When I call out nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, I'm pointing out that someone's fond memories tend to overlook the parts of the game that were widely considered flawed or bad,

Perhaps in that person's opinion they weren't flawed or bad? Or perhaps they have taken the flaws into account and still reached the conclusion that it was great. Just because you don't agree with it, or the community in general doesn't agree with it doesn't make that person's opinion any less reliable. Also, you seem to be attributing those who have fond memories of something as being absolutists that may not be deserved. Saying "The community in XI was the best I ever experienced" does not mean that person believes each and every member of that community was great and there were no idiots.

[Hyrist]

Perhaps in that person's opinion they weren't flawed or bad? Or perhaps they have taken the flaws into account and still reached the conclusion that it was great. Just because you don't agree with it, or the community in general doesn't agree with it doesn't make that person's opinion any less reliable. Also, you seem to be attributing those who have fond memories of something as being absolutists that may not be deserved. Saying "The community in XI was the best I ever experienced" does not mean that person believes each and every member of that community was great and there were no idiots.

Never said that, but I did say they need to take the time to view their options objectively and realize if and when they are in the minority. Defiantly declaring your opinion in a manner of which that lists it as sacrosanct, then hiding behind the all impenetrable veil of 'it's my opinion!' does not prevent it from being inherently rude, or unpopular to the silent majority.

Recognizing that position from the onset opens the door to discussion as to the inspiration and the ideas being malleable into a context that can be beneficiary for as many as possible. Instead of saying "Stop hating what I like!" or "Stop liking what I don't!"

The conversation should not go "This needs more FFXI! Less WoWZ!" The conversation should go "Hey, I like this mechanic, but I remember a lot of people not liking how it was implemented or what happened to it, how do we make it fit in FFXIV and how do we make it fun for more people?"

Kazamoto above makes a good example of what he liked and would like to see adapted. The conversation could go on from there.

Also...

Blue mage (x8)
...and Beastmaster.

I love Blue Mage, but how would we make that job work within the context of our current battle system?