The Echo - ARR edition

[Applesnap]

Hello all. Just wondering if I could get some confirmation surrounding the Echo. I have a fairly good hold on Eorzean lore in general, but not able to find solid answers for these:

a) Do we have a list of people who possess the Echo aside from ourselves and Minfilia? Are Cid and Alphinaud included?

b) Are we able to enter someone's memory at will? Consciously, by ourselves.

Thanks.

[Anonymoose]

A) I will assume no for Cid. We had to help him find his own memories and he's 100% Garlean (little if any connection to the aetherial world in his physical existence). As for other NPCs, it's a little touch and go depending on the times (in 1.0, everyone in the Waking Sands had the Echo, because that's what the place was built - exploring and understanding what it was). Nobody comes to mind... (yet...)

B) Probably - if not at this point in the storyline, then probably later. In V1.0 there'd even be a little Use the power of the Echo? option to advance some quests, implying that, by that point in the story, we had some mastery over it. Earlier on in the storyline it would just shwoop us into and out of the past at random with no warning, explanation, or clear marker that it'd happened (unless you knew to look for the subtle shwoops). Raya-O-Senna scolded us for doing so to her.

[Applesnap]

a) It's such a difficult part of the lore to find solid information on since so much is just assumed or relies on us presuming. Not even mentioning things like language barriers (this was mentioned in v1 lore partially). We can talk to / understand everyone, but everyone else can't speak to everyone else etc.

b) As far as controlling the visions, I agree again. It's such a powerful tool though, and it has the potential to destroy any immersion or challenging situation by simply bypassing it. Maybe we are "still learning" how to use our power.

Maybe we'll get some clarity further down the line. I was hoping for it to be a bit more clear-cut. Thank you though!

[Enkidoh]

The trouble is, there is a major difference in the amount of detail Minfilia went into when describing the Echo and how it functions between 1.0 and ARR - in 1.0 she went into great detail about it, which is probably how the player is able to gain control over it and use it seemingly at will (she even asks the player to use it to demonstrate to her that the player actually possess it). In ARR however, she explains it briefly, then handwaves it away as she goes back to talking about the Primals.

Unfortunately, the actual use of the Echo in ARR seems to be more re-purposed as a convenient explanation for how the player is able to avoid the corrupting influence of a Primal (hence making them a valuable commodity), which was nothing more than a side effect the player discovered by accident in 1.0 - the two most important features of the power: being able to view another's memories as if the viewer themselves had actually experienced it first hand, and also understanding any language in the world even if they had never spoken it before (xenoglossia), are in ARR only occasionally mentioned/shown and virtually forgotten respectively.

Which is kind of a contradiction, given the fact that in ARR the Archons themselves state to the player that the player seems to be the most potent user of the Echo they have ever seen, so being able to control that power at will would kind of be expected (hence when Minfilia lamented that "if only we could use that power whenever we desired" - paraphrased, I was a little surprised, because it directly contradicted her own actions and words to the player on the subject in 1.0.)

There was also a lack of consistency in the Echo's power as well between members, in 1.0 some, like Minfilia, stated they could only experience past events from memories and couldn't understand other languages, while others couldn't view memories, but had a remarkable understanding of language - again in 1.0 one such npc was a lalafell who stated he had actually used his meager Echo power in business (he didn't elaborate on exactly how he used it, just it was "profitable"). And of course, some, like the player, had mastery of both aspects.

In any event, as for your first question, 1.0 stated that the amount of people 'awakening' to the Echo's power seemed to be increasing (Minfilia herself complained that the 'mere trickle of reports' of new prospective Echo users had grown into 'a veritable mountain', and mused at who, or what, was causing this sudden increase in Echo users. At that time it should be noted that the exact source of the Echo was unknown, and Minfilia and her colleagues at the time believed it was a member of the Twelve responsible (hence her Echo organization was called 'The Path of the Twelve') - of course ARR has virtually confirmed it was

Hydaelyn/the Mothercrystal, something that was hinted at briefly in 1.0 but never actually mentioned.

. The Path in 1.0 was shown to be a fairly large organization with members from all walks of life, of different races and nationalities, and ages as well. One Echo user was a hapless lalafell girl who was stated as being noble born but had been thrown out on the street by her parents when she started having 'visions'.

By the time of ARR though, the amount of Echo users who stayed on with the Path's new successor organization, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, seemed to have reduced considerably. Whether the missing had been lost in the Calamity, had gone into hiding, or just left the new organization, is unknown. But it's highly likely there would still be people being awoken to the Echo even post-Calamity - new players being one of them.

[Applesnap]

Thank you for the post, Enkidoh. It's all very interesting stuff.

Even taking one facet of the Echo in ARR, it does seem very glossed over. My particular issue is the language barrier. The intricasies of how xenoglossia would work are just too complicated. Does the Echo transform our voice into some panlexical sound that everyone/everything can understand, no matter their language? Does it only work for the person we're speaking to? ie. room full of Garleans, only the one we're directly talking to can understand. Does it work for languages not of Hydaelyn? eg. Case in point: Lightning from XIII.

It's assumed without even a thought, but if you accept there are at least three languages - Eorzean, Garlean and Sharlayan - then, technically, at any one time: Cid shouldn't be able to communicate with 95% of the people he meets. Nor should Alphinaud. Nor should any of the Garlean generals. It's mentioned somewhere back in v1 lore that's this is why the Garleans used Eorzea-born citizens to enter cities and start spreading propaganda, in our native language, during the war 25 years ago.

Too many questions left in the air. Not even beginning to mention some of the Echo's other powers. The Garleans apparently are so hell-bent on trying to understand it, they were prepared to lobotomise Minfilia (it's implied, after she refuses to talk). Why not kidnap and dissect some random adventurer off the street, if that's the case?

I'm trying to fully understand it because I'm writing fanfiction, but I'm also exceedingly stringent on lore. It has to be right, else what's the point? I feel v1 was a LOT more generous and as far as ARR goes it's become a casualty to the rampant "casual appeal" we've had to accept. Would honestly love a dev reply on this, but they're probably all too busy, hah.

[Enkidoh]

Thank you for the post, Enkidoh. It's all very interesting stuff.

Even taking one facet of the Echo in ARR, it does seem very glossed over. My particular issue is the language barrier. The intricasies of how xenoglossia would work are just too complicated. Does the Echo transform our voice into some panlexical sound that everyone/everything can understand, no matter their language? Does it only work for the person we're speaking to? ie. room full of Garleans, only the one we're directly talking to can understand. Does it work for languages not of Hydaelyn? eg. Case in point: Lightning from XIII.

In 1.0 Minfilia specifically stated that the Echo really did grant the player 'mastery over all languages of Eorzea' - as far as this went she stated she believed that this was actually a side-effect in itself from 'touching a person's soul', by intergrating themselves into another's thoughts and memories, the Echo allowed that person to subtly understand them, even if they only speak another language previously unfamiliar to them. Although it would make sense to be instantly granted the ability to understand one unknown language by using the Echo on one person, it seems that just one use is all it takes to understand all of them, including beastman languages (see next paragraph).

It's assumed without even a thought, but if you accept there are at least three languages - Eorzean, Garlean and Sharlayan - then, technically, at any one time: Cid shouldn't be able to communicate with 95% of the people he meets. Nor should Alphinaud. Nor should any of the Garlean generals. It's mentioned somewhere back in v1 lore that's this is why the Garleans used Eorzea-born citizens to enter cities and start spreading propaganda, in our native language, during the war 25 years ago.

It's not stated outright but given the fact there is a standardized written Eorzean alphabet used by all nations in Eorzea, it stands to reason that would also apply to spoken language as well, hence it seems that all the nations of Eorzea speak the same language. It's unclear, but it's also possible that the Garleans speak the same langauge, or at least a varied dialect of it, as you never hear them speak anything different.

In fact, in 1.0 it was made quite clear the Echo's language mastery was not so much for understanding another member of the five races, but more understanding beastmen races - the beginning of the original Gridania storyline the fact the player could understand mooglespeak was in itself a hint that something very strange was going on, as npcs remarked that mooglespeak was a frustratingly difficult language to master, and for an apparent outsider who just showed up out of the blue to speak it like the common tongue, was naturally regarded as an amazing thing (besides the player, Yda and Papalymo were also clearly shown to at least understand mooglespeak, when a moogle mistakenly believed they wouldn't understand the insult he made at them, which an irate Papalymo soon made quite clear he very much did, leading a bemused E-Sumi Yan to offer a strained apology.

As well, during the first quest for the Path of the Twelve in 1.0, Minfilia clearly demonstrated her lack of this aspect of the Echo when a party of desperate sylphs occupied the Waking Sands desperate for help from the organization, and because she couldn't understand what they were saying (in fact, Tataru actually admitted it seemed no one then in the Waking Sands could), an exasperated Minfilia desperately called out for another member to translate what they were saying (the player ends up doing this when they eventually show up in her office).

It's somewhat ironic then that in ARR the only language that the player doesn't seem to be able to understand is the language of the Ascians, as all we hear when they speak is an unintelligible croaking mass of random syllables, but is translated in red text (this led Lahabreha to sarcastically quip that he had to speak to the player in "their crude tongue" when he realized that the player didn't understand him). I guess even the Echo has a limit. ).

Too many questions left in the air. Not even beginning to mention some of the Echo's other powers. The Garleans apparently are so hell-bent on trying to understand it, they were prepared to lobotomise Minfilia (it's implied, after she refuses to talk). Why not kidnap and dissect some random adventurer off the street, if that's the case?

I'm trying to fully understand it because I'm writing fanfiction, but I'm also exceedingly stringent on lore. It has to be right, else what's the point? I feel v1 was a LOT more generous and as far as ARR goes it's become a casualty to the rampant "casual appeal" we've had to accept. Would honestly love a dev reply on this, but they're probably all too busy, hah.

Ironically enough, originally in 1.0 the Garleans actually regarded anyone with the Echo as a heretic for this very reason - because they could understand the beastmen languages, they were basically regarding anyone who communicated with the beastmen as a beastman themselves (they stated this as propaganda from linkpearls dropped from Imperial airships, calling on the citystates to accept Imperial rule and aid the Empire in the extermination of the beast tribes). Accordingly Minfilia at this time entertained notions of actually joining forces with the beastmen against the Empire, thinking that at the very least being able to communicate with the beastmen would allow them to come to a mutual understanding with the beastmen, and such a union would be better than both societies trying to face the Empire alone (it must be noted that this part of the storyline was Tanaka-era and preceded the decision by the development team to bring down Dalamud - accordingly the Grand Companies didn't exist at this point).

It was also before it was known the beastmen had actually begun to summon - the citystates knew the beastmen had stopped the trade in crystals they formerly had with the citystates and that they were conducting strange rites, but until the player's Path Companion went behind Minfilia's back and, with t he player, saw first-hand the very first summoning of Ifrit by the amalj'aa, allying with the beastmen was considered the best option available. As well, the Garleans didn't actually know that the Echo protected a person from being influenced by a Primal - once they realized this they changed tack and became hellbent on trying to understand it, somewhat ironic considering their previous attitudes towards it.

In any event, it was definitely clear that Tanaka had been planning the Echo to be something far bigger than what it actually turned out to be in ARR - a shame as the concept is very interesting and could have been used to have taken the storyline in many directions. But I guess we'll have to wait and see if Yoshi-P has similar plans for it, which I hope he does.

[Kyan]

... doesn't seem to be able to understand is the language of the Ascians...(this led Lahabreha to sarcastically quip that he had to speak to the player in "their crude tongue" when he realized that the player didn't understand him)

I'm not sure this is correct. I recently rewatched the cutscene in the Inn room for another reason, and I has previously thought the same as you. However, rereading the cutscene, I believe the player can understand the Ascian tongue because of the echo. What we are reading in red is the 'echo translation' in that particular scene. Your character nods in acknowledgement of understanding what Lahabrea says, and he even states that he 'must be careful of what he says' before turning to the "crude tongue" of the player.

I'll have to check again after work!

[Enkidoh]

Oh yes, you're right. I'd forgotten the full context of that scene in question so yeah, I missed the extra dialogue Lahabrea made when he realized the player had the Echo. Thanks for that clarification.

However, the fact that they still are the only ones whose dialogue is spoken in a completely different language in the game (I've heard rumours that the Ascian language is actually English written in reverse and spoken by non-English speakers), still makes it seem that the Ascian language is the only one the Echo can't translate - the red dialogue shown in the text box being simply a narrative device like is used in film and TV whenever a foreign language is spoken by a character that the viewer wouldn't understand. But I guess nothing is known for certainty at this time - with the Ascians stated as returning as a major plotline in the new 2.1 story, no doubt this will be expanded upon as well. Or at least, I hope it will.

[Shai]

I completely agree with you about the Tanaka-era Echo.

There was a moment at the end of the main storyline (Tanaka-era) where it seemed the Circle of Knowing was not impressed with you & your Path Companion rushing into things without even understanding the true potential of the power of the Echo, and without questioning where it came from or why it was gifted to you. It felt like the future of that storyline was going to lead us to further development of our mastery of the Echo and understanding who and what (which at the time, I didn't believe, nor do I really like at the moment, to be the Mothercrystal) had bestowed it.

Although I do like the Dalamud story, and I think the direction Yoshida has taken is a marvelous one - I do lament the inconclusiveness of whatever Tanaka was building to and I hope somewhere those plans are still on the drawing board.


I think I posted in another thread some theory-forged ideas about why the Echo appears to be weaker in ARR than it was in 1.0. I also suspected in 1.0 that the Circle of Knowing had some knowledge of (if not access themselves) the Echo. I still wonder if Louisoix used the Echo to "remove [Legacy players] from time itself" to protect them and protect Eorzea in the future. But regardless of rampant speculation on that subject, my initial hypothesis about the Echo was that since Louisoix did whatever he did (and the vast majority of Eorzea forgot the true faces and names of the Warriors) - somehow this mass amnesia effected the players Echo. They are unfamiliar with it and have less access to it than they did before. We can see the past, but cannot interact. It's just a random theory, but I do hope - as you - that the Echo really develops into something more in the future of the storyline and isn't simply a convenient plot device to show us flashbacks.