what to use as Ring 2 as War?

[Leiron]

Leiron, I think you're missing the point of what other people are saying. Extra VIT is only better when you need more HP. If you never go < 400 HP, getting 400 HP is worse than a small chance to mitigate damage. 400 HP has 0 chance to do ANYTHING for you at that point. I rather parry 1 out of 5 attacks than none at all and never dropping below 400 hp. If you need HP, get VIT. If you don't need any more HP, get DPS accessories. It's pretty simple.

Furthermore, I think it's safe to say with min-maxing all your gear, you wouldn't need the extra HP and thus, get DPS accessories.

Here's some more information:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zation-for-WAR.

I've read it and the end conclusion of the OP was that the Rose Ring (tank) was better than gryphon skin (dps) because you'll hit the caps anyway and not be able to go high enough to the next cap.
In essence it then falls down between parry/s.speed in which case the parry wins, so you'd still be stacking vitality since the rose ring comes with it anyway.

I understand their argument, but I simply disagree with the end conclusion.
Simply because I disagree does not mean I do not understand their argument.
The belief is that once you hit the theoretical point where more vitality is "unnecessary", you use str/dex accessories to enhance your DPS and speed up the run.

I disagree with that conclusion because it works under somewhat inaccurate pretense, which is that the impact of the accessory is greater than the impact of the vitality and is better for speed runs, and that it impacts the DPS of the tank enough to create a significant difference.
Even if a Tank's DPS is increased by 10% the difference in kill times is very low because of how ltank DPS works.
Warriors have high potency ont heir combo and a 300 potency DoT, but BLM's have a 150 potency spell that is increased by 80% at AF3, Firestart procs, Thunder procs, and more effective AOEs.
Same for Dragoons, Monk's etc etc.


TO even make a significant dent in tank DPS warrants swapping your entire gear, and not just your accessories, and given the fact that vitality has no true cap but str/dex/parry do means you may not even be deriving the actual benefit you believe in.
At that point though, you stop being a tank because your vit is too low.
The investment of survivability is too great, and increasing your strength by 25 isn't going to make your DPS have a greater impact.


The fastest speed runs involve utilizing heavy vit tanks, and the reason for this is because it means you can pull more mobs, AOE them down, then move on to the next trash pack.
Heck you need high HP because if the healer pop regen on you before the next trash pack, they pull agro and it all goes to hell.
You want that extra cushion, and the bigger the cushion, the less the healer needs to pay attention to you or utilize emergency cooldowns.
The war of attrition for dying becomes longer, and puts the fight in your favor since DPS has more time to kill the mobs.
So there is no true waste of HP, a diminished effect maybe, but its never wasted.

Edit: On another note and I do not intend to derail the discussion, but is there only one parser for FFXIV? I was planning to experiment with Marauder.

[Paikis]

Just thought I'd add in, my testing shows a 15% (give or take 1-2%) increase in my DPS by using Gyphonskin stuff. I also go from 23% to 25% parry reduction while in a group. The STR increase is not enough to get you two full break-points, but I am in a position gear-wise where it does bridge the remaining distance.

I am in the process of replacing my melds on the accessories as well. I currently have Parry3/Parry3/Vit3/Vit3/Vit2 in most of them, and am replacing with Vit4/Crit3/Parry3/Parry3/Vit2. I would use Vit4/Crit4/Parry3/Parry3/Vit2 but Crit4 materia is 600k+ on my server and I simply can't afford it.

[Gamemako]

You are suggesting that parry, which is chance based, is at all comparable to true mitigation i.e. shield oath.
It really is not comparable due to the nature of parry.

Every single moment in the game is RNG. Every attack an enemy delivers is between 0% (dodged) and 150% (critical) of its base value. This is unavoidable. Attempting to discount RNG is a non-starter.

Parry in itself is not constant, so the actual mitigation will be less than what one would expect.

Your math here is off. A 20% chance to reduce by 25% is a 5% total reduction (0.2*0.25=0.05). As I said, Gryphonskin is going to be an additional 1-2% of physical damage mitigated. You could compare Ninjiitsu's roughly 24% chance of 24% reduction to a 28% chance of 25% reduction, which is a change of 5.76% of all physical damage reduced to 7.00% of all physical damage reduced. This is not large, but far from nonexistent.

Furthermore, it does not matter at all that it's a random effect. You have just as high a chance of blocking the big attack as any other attack. You are suggesting a scaling problem that simply doesn't exist.

Furthermore, Parry works ONLY on physical abilities.
Vitality works on both elemental AND physical abilities.

Once again, Vitality does not appreciably affect mitigation. You take 500 damage with 1 VIT or with 999 VIT, and it's still 500 damage. You get back 40% of HP per minute in passive regen and effectively an additional 10% per minute from ToB. At 450 HP gained, it's 225 HP/min. 3 Inner Beast over 1 minute at 1300 average (360 STR + Bravura) and a 10% increase in damage will give you back 390 HP/min, and at an incoming damage rate of, say, 750 DPS, you reduce an additional 558 damage per minute from the greater parry rate. You don't need a Ph.D in mathematics to figure out that 948 > 225.

It makes no sense to tell someone "Use a gryphonskin ring over a fending ring" then say in the next breath that "allocating for anything but vitality as a tank is wrong."

First, I said neither of these -- in fact, I very deliberately stated the following:

//EDIT: I'm not saying one way or the other what the person should take. As far as ilvl70 stuff goes, HQ Gryphonskin is the obvious winner, but when you look at ilvl90 stuff, you have to determine whether you can even afford to lose that HP, and I just don't really have any reasonable way of modeling that as it depends on specific encounters.

Second, you don't even have a point to argue here, and it's tiring. You're actually arguing "with 789 VIT, you still need 2 more to survive a hit from Caduceus!" You don't believe that, but you're saying it because you don't have anything at all to say about excess eHP. Stop that shit. Don't argue nothing for the sake of arguing.

I've read it and the end conclusion of the OP was that the Rose Ring (tank) was better than gryphon skin (dps) because you'll hit the caps anyway and not be able to go high enough to the next cap.
In essence it then falls down between parry/s.speed in which case the parry wins, so you'd still be stacking vitality since the rose ring comes with it anyway.

Last I checked, there were more than a few errors in that thread (e.g. DEX tier suggested when none was ever found). Rose Gold and Gryphonskin will both end up with identical VIT and parry. Rose Gold has it natively, and Gryphonskin will meld it. There is no reason to consider differences in STR, VIT, and parry between the two because these stats will be identical. Gryphonskin gives you DEX and a set secondary while Rose Gold gives you any secondary of your choosing.

I disagree with that conclusion because it works under somewhat inaccurate pretense, which is that the impact of the accessory is greater than the impact of the vitality and is better for speed runs, and that it impacts the DPS of the tank enough to create a significant difference.
Even if a Tank's DPS is increased by 10% the difference in kill times is very low because of how ltank DPS works.

You have underestimated tank DPS, which is around 50-60% of dedicated DPS damage when in tank mode compared to a full-damage-stacked DPS. Depending on party size and healer DPS opportunities, STR-melded accessories will add 1-3% to party DPS. Any DPS switching from ilvl70 to ilvl90 gear will move only 2-5% of party DPS.

str/dex/parry do

Only parry/block strength has known tiering effects.

At that point though, you stop being a tank because your vit is too low.

False dilemma.

The fastest speed runs involve utilizing heavy vit tanks

You mean heavy-VIT PLD? Yeah...

Edit: On another note and I do not intend to derail the discussion, but is there only one parser for FFXIV? I was planning to experiment with Marauder.

Only two I know of are LogRep and FFXIV-app.

[Leiron]

I lost my entire post so I'll summarize.
I would not suggest utilizing DPS as an accurate measurement of what you will mitigate simply because bosses do not hit for uniform damage.
Titan can drop 6k burst, and while the average can work out to 500 DPS, it doesn't mean your average mitigation is 25 DPS, you may have mitigated a mountain buster, or you mitigated a regular attack.
So while one can try and make the suggestion of mitigation a perentage of damage it isn't necessarily accurate because the damage is not uniform.

also am confused why you measured IB and ToB in terms of HPS, given that they are used as needed, and not constantly, particularly IB which is reactive and if you overheal, its wasted an essentiallly 0hps.

I will assume I am simply underestimating the benefit of parry/tank DPS though


As for LogRep vs FFXIV-APP, which is better?

[Gamemako]

I would not suggest utilizing DPS as an accurate measurement of what you will mitigate simply because bosses do not hit for uniform damage.

This does not matter. It makes no difference how the damage is delivered, you still reduce each incoming hit by damage*(chance to parry * parry strength). That is, every hit has the same chance to be reduced by the same ratio. You get a damage pattern of 100-100-100-2000-100-100-100-2000-etc, average damage is 575 per hit. For 25%/28% parry, mitigation is 100(0.25*0.28)+100(0.25*0.28)+100(0.25*0.28)+2000(0.25*0.28)+etc -- which is an average of (7+7+7+140)/4 = 40.25. That's the same as 575*(0.25*0.28).

also am confused why you measured IB and ToB in terms of HPS, given that they are used as needed, and not constantly, particularly IB which is reactive and if you overheal, its wasted an essentiallly 0hps.

It is certainly true that you can account for overheal (and I probably should have) -- you could just as easily estimate an average overheal of 20% or whatever you like. It's not going to be a large difference in this case. I included everything on the basis of HPS because that is the nature of continuous mitigation, the basis of the comparison. Comparing any enemy DPS number must be averaged over a certain number of hits (or must account for randomness by proposing proper scenarios -- not really relevant here because it doesn't involve any discontinuities). Over time, parry reduces healing load by a nontrivial amount. Same with Featherfoot, for example. Neither of these are considerations for whether or not a person survives that one big hit. This is why I said previously that the question of Allagan Ring of Fending vs. Gryphonskin is something I can't really give advice on: I'd need a solid estimate of max burst damage from T1/T4/T5 OT duty to estimate how much VIT you can afford to forgo.

As for LogRep vs FFXIV-APP, which is better?

LogRep tends to be more repeatable last I checked, but I don't really have any hard comparisons here, and updates may improve one or the other at any time.

[Leiron]

In terms of t1 maximum burst at around 3 stacks is aruond 3k or so from Caduceus
I believe that is for a Paladin so you'll need to reverse it and increase the damage by 25% to reverse it I believe.
So the tank would receive around 3600 as a Warrior.
At an ungodly amount of stacks, which is 8, I believe hoodswing hits for around 8k or so
For ADS, at 4 stacks some of the bosses attacks hit for 3k, then an additional 2k on top of that immediately after.
I am unsure of the damage benefit per stack for ADS though.
As for t4 dreadnoughts I believe it runs along the same vein as ADS' burst though the damage comes in more quickly and is at 3 stacks rather than 4.

Its tricky to asy though I ahven't been in BC lately since I've been busy with school

[Judge_Xero]

2 gyrphonskin rings are better in every way than one each of Fending/Striking. If you want to stack Vit, use Hero/Allagan fending rings, for every other situation, double Gryphonskin rings is the only way to go.

Oh for sure. I thought the OP was just referring to Dungeon Drops/Token Gear. Also, I'm too poor even for normal Gryphonskin rings.