[dev1033][dev1030] Group Combat

[Meridian]

I'll say this first so hopefully people read it: Please don't reply to this thread simply to say "It's fine" or "Terrible ideas" - please take the time to articulate a thoughtful reply.

With the addition of the job system, group-based combat should take on a stronger role in the game, and I would like to put forward my ideas for this, as well as hear anyone else's ideas.

So far, I have found the group-based combat in FFXIV lacklustre and unfulfilling.

I am not talking about NM fights, but the grouping experience while levelling, please bear that in mind when reading this post.

My experiences with grouping with "strangers" has been absolutely fine in terms of how polite people are, however I have only managed to make friends with a handful of these people due to the fire-and-forget nature of most groups.

Behest

Behest does not last long enough and is too mobile to be able to effectively communicate with the others in your group.

People (occasionally) put up a mark on an enemy group, engage, kill, move on to the next. There are no tactics, and no communication required.

I would like to see Behest extended to last the full 30 minutes before the next one starts, be this by mobs continually spawning at a steady rate for the people on Behest, or by another method.

I'd also like to see Behest becoming more about defending the camps... Perhaps groups of mobs could attack the camp, leaving people a little more stationary and able to chat and talk about tactics while taking part.

Guild Leves

I think the problems with Behest also apply to Guild Leves. Additionally, it is often difficult to find people to Leve Link with effectively because everyone gets offered different Leves every reset.

I'd like to see everyone offered the same Leves every time they reset. This would greatly encourage people to Leve Link, and make this a lot easier to do without resorting to such tricks as I have read about which are offending certain people

Group Mechanics

Group vs Group combat (which I believe was something FFXIV was touted to be about) seems to basically involve attacking whichever mob you feel like while the healers spam their AoE heals and the tanks try their best, but often to no avail.

With the addition of the job system, I would hope to see group mechanics becoming a lot more prevalent.

Tanking and healing should become possible and challenging respectively. There should be some measure of proper buffing and debuffing taking place, and support roles should become an important aspect of the game. Crowd control during Group vs Group combat should become important, yet not a chore for the person conducting it (ie. not having to recast it very often)

Summary

In the future I would like to see measures taken in the grouping and combat mechanics to facilitate people to socialise with the people they are in a party with. The social aspect of an MMO is obviously one of the most important things, and I find it currently inhibited due to the reasons noted above.

I would even go as far as saying that the FFXI method of grouping, finding a camp, and grinding mobs at that camp was superior to the current system of little or random grouping and roaming.

Please let me know your thoughts on these matters, as I am quite sure I can't be the only person experiencing this!

[ZephyrAM]

Quite valid points .

While I don't believe that 'anything' could be worse then, or justify, the group spot-camping methods that brutalized XI, it is true that with the faster combat style and leve system of XIV, groups do tend to end up of the 'kill and run' variety, which doesn't leave any time for socializing. Especially with the time limits we always have in place.

Your ideas on Guildleve's and Behests are actually good ones. Randomizing leves is great for variety, but giving players the same leves as everyone else, for that reset, would make grouping easier... although, I can't say that it would do anything toward improving socializing, only leve link spamming for SP. Also, it could actually hinder any further grouping beyond leve links or with anyone that doesn't have the particular leve in question, since those in charge of the group know that everyone has the same leves and they can afford to be picky about who they let in the group: i.e., only those that also have the leves on them.

The idea of defending the camps for Behests is actually great, and would give them more of a feel of importance, rather then the hunt-and-kill nature that makes them exactly like Guildleves. If failing a leve actually resulted in losing control of the camp, even better, especially since XIV touted a sort of 'city battle' concept early on. This would, of course, have kinks to work out, so that solo players aren't out of luck for the leve's at that camp just because there's nobody there to help them win the Behest (for instance), but it would certainly be a more interesting system .

I don't personally have much of an opinion regarding the Group vs Group mechanics at the moment, as I'm not max, or near max, level yet, and as such haven't done a lot of grouping myself, but they sound like solid points. Give everyone a purpose that they can actually succeed at and spend their time during the battle on without resorting to skill spamming. Variety in combat is everything.

[Teknoman]

Dont forget that XIV was originally supposed to focus on group vs group as well as mobile combat (basically standard Final Fantasy combat we've seen from I-XII excluding XI). So yeah, the amount of running back and forth in behest could be toned down, but im not sure how the enhancement of enemies and the new battle system will effect behests in general. Behests are supposed to be like extermination missions...so your idea may work better with the way hamlet defense was supposed to be.

[Karbine]

I am in favor of toning down the amount of dashing back and forth between 3 or more monsters in a group. I really dislike they messy feel that multiple monsters at the same time gives when fighting PTs of monsters. If we could control them better it wouldnt be that bad I think. I like the behest and leve comments as well. Especially offering all leves and letting people select them by choice rather than having to fail them in order to keep it. That really bothers me for some reason.

[Issachar]

Pretty good points. While I have no critique to offer, I'll +1 your Like! in hopes someone of authority notices the suggestions.

[weeble]

my thoughts in social aspect is kinda the same, i hated the idea of auto attack being added because the game slowly took back into play pl's, leeching, afk'ing and all them things i hate that happen during grinds. (wished they stuck out with the very first system and fixed that one) but the good part would be that it can be easier to type while u'r in auto attack. this will make for easy taling and macro usage for battle stratagies. but also i'm all for chating in parties and grinds but not in replacement of battle and the best progress. i hate when talking is happening while the mobs are dying befor that person hits the mob once. so a balance that allows talking but not screwing with the grind would be great.

also i don't mind not having the running around at all, i liked the hole one spot camps in ffxi. incorporating this hole party vs party play in regular grinding and not just leves and behest can also help this. after the one mob we move to is killed allow another set of 1-3 come pop out at u one at a time or few at time. fact adding different mobs will add variety and force us to play out different mobs as part of the grind.


i haven't done behest in probably 4-6months, there isn't a point for it at all past rank 20, but i did find it as u say the same as link leves, dull and boring. the idea of making them a full 30mins is a cool one, will make it worth maybe running to a camp to do if we were gettign the equivalent to 30minutes worth of behest sp.

i think leves are a huge problem in this game. for one they fully replace sp regular grinds. there is almost absolutely no reason to have to regular grind with leves in play. all the systems ffxiv has turns other things into a punishement rather something enjoyable to do. they need to turn the sp in leves equivalent to the sp regular grinds or no one will do them. people just do leves and are done till next reset. if leves are expected to take place of regular grinding then we screwed cause they are absolutely boring. i prefer regular grind over them. they are like wow quest to quest exp ...exept one thing, one huuuuuge thing, it's the same frigin leves over and over and over. i would rather grind in same spot like in ffxi then that. how many times did any of u do assaults in ffxi? right 1-3 times tops then u repeated same one just to get u'r reward and done with it (less u was doing salvage, but still did same one) and assault was acually fun.

giving everyone the same leves will help with grouping though, i like that idea that can make it a little easier to group outside of statics, but again i think leves are a problem in general. with those tricks you call them people can get an easy 100-140k every reset easily with a static with all the same leves. who on earth will want to go regular grind when just waiting a day will yeild u more an hour, will avoid having to shout for groups, or dealing with lack of anima, or dealing with getting a group going just for it to end an hour later from people running off on u.

i agree with everything u say on party vs party play. i reading they adding more to crowd control and enmity so this might be the fix we looking for. but i want to see the opposite from what u said i don't consider it a chore, i want it to be a very active job to keep things in place, lots of different needs to stop them from attacking but on top that perhaps prep works to making them extra squishy or something while the first one is getting pummeled. i loved rdm cause it was very active in button pushing lol, and i loved pulling with brd, the busier the class the more fun for me.

want to see more party play in this game, they made such a big thing about it all the way into launch. like i mentioned above i'd love to see party play added into regular grinds. hopefully that is what we have to look forward to as they open new lands and ranks are raised.

my summary would be : social yes please, ffxi's grouping system i agree was way better then the one we got and i'd happily take that one over the one we have. also i'm hoping that the roaming mobs they adding all over all zones to make running around a little more entertaining. most important thing for me is party play though, nothing will ruin any mmo for me then not having party play in a way where i not have to static to do it, or for it to be only a few hours a day during specific times and hours. events are for endgame to me, everything else is a log and go thing to me or else game is fail. specially with the feeding of the spoon on casual play. i'm not causal but i bet they don't expect casual to mean solo everything by urself. or for it to mean log in at specific time or u'r screwed. ok lemme stop typing i can go all day. lol