Market Wards, enough is enough

[Shika]

Thing is, botters and RMT will always find a way to get hold of commodity items in order to attempt some form of price fixing and economy control.
In FFXI you could see RMT at the the Auction Houses all the time, and know (from looking at the sales history) they were buying up say all the black sole stocks so that they could pass on to a crafting bot/buddy to turn into sushi to sell.

If they find it harder to get hold of an item by simply buying it (which is an argument appearing against having some form of direct instant purchase like the AH system in FFXI), then they will just get more bots/RMT to go and fish, mine or kill the mobs that drop an item the want (over and over and over....)
They would definately not be put off by having to have some of their group stand in each ward in each city, probably using some hack or whatever, in order to buy the item from a retainer (which is effectively what they are doing right now) rather than doing it from the counter. Just my two pennies on this argument. Not saying that I am right, lol.

[Shai]

Thing is, botters and RMT will always find a way to get hold of commodity items in order to attempt some form of price fixing and economy control.
In FFXI you could see RMT at the the Auction Houses all the time, and know (from looking at the sales history) they were buying up say all the black sole stocks so that they could pass on to a crafting bot/buddy to turn into sushi to sell.

If they find it harder to get hold of an item by simply buying it (which is an argument appearing against having some form of direct instant purchase like the AH system in FFXI), then they will just get more bots/RMT to go and fish, mine or kill the mobs that drop an item the want (over and over and over....)
They would definately not be put off by having to have some of their group stand in each ward in each city, probably using some hack or whatever, in order to buy the item from a retainer (which is effectively what they are doing right now) rather than doing it from the counter. Just my two pennies on this argument. Not saying that I am right, lol.

Simply because we know they will exist and find a way to procure commodities, doesn't mean we should hand our economy over to them on a platter. I agree that player fun/convenience should be on the forefront of how to build a successful game, much less a market economy - but at the same time if some simple conveniences can be sacrificed (without sacrificing too much efficiency and trying not to sacrifice fun) to hinder RMT from taking control of the market wards, I think it should be done.

FFXI's AH was a gigantic failure. Who among people asking for AH were making your money crafting NQ items? Who among you were making money on Alchemy or Cooking or Fishing? Who among you were simply interested in battle and liked when you went to the AH you found what you were looking for and went about your way?

The market should cater to the crafters and gatherers first and foremost. It is those people who enjoy spending their time making and selling goods. We shouldn't take that away from them. I'm frankly upset at how many people want to do that simply so they can get their goods 1min faster than stepping into a Market Ward.

I do agree the search function needs to be refined. HQ items should be searchable separately. Selling items should be searchable. Repairs should be searchable. SE should work on THIS first so the Markets run smoothly as they are and the crafters/gatherers get more out of it - as well as battle oriented players finding things they need faster.

[Amineri]

The market should cater to the crafters and gatherers first and foremost.

Shai, I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. And this is speaking as a someone who thinks of herself as a crafter / gatherer first and foremost.

The market system should NOT cater to crafters and gatherers first, imho. It should serve all players equally, whether supplier or consumers, buyers or sellers. Setting up crafters and gatherers to have fun at the expense of combat classes won't lead to a fun game.

Let me take a stab at a Matsui-san style mission statement for the market system (which could include the current market wards, a simplified menu-driven interface, or a true bidding-style auction house, or whatever crazy scheme gets cooked up).

The goal of the market system is to provide tools to:

• Efficiently match buyers and sellers
• Allow mutually satisfactory prices to be quickly determined
• Minimize the impact of market manipulation forces

[Seif]

Shai, I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. And this is speaking as a someone who thinks of herself as a crafter / gatherer first and foremost.

The market system should NOT cater to crafters and gatherers first, imho. It should serve all players equally, whether supplier or consumers, buyers or sellers. Setting up crafters and gatherers to have fun at the expense of combat classes won't lead to a fun game.

Let me take a stab at a Matsui-san style mission statement for the market system (which could include the current market wards, a simplified menu-driven interface, or a true bidding-style auction house, or whatever crazy scheme gets cooked up).

The goal of the market system is to provide tools to:

• Efficiently match buyers and sellers
• Allow mutually satisfactory prices to be quickly determined
• Minimize the impact of market manipulation forces

Just sound like an AH to be no matter how you dice it.
It's always the gatherers and crafters who defend MW because they have all the time in the world to fiddle with menus.

But for the rest of us this game might as well not have any PC driven economy because there is no AH.
MW definitely does not add anything to the game experience for players like me in fact it's one of the reasons why I haven't played this game for months.

[Shai]

Just sound like an AH to be no matter how you dice it.
It's always the gatherers and crafters who defend MW because they have all the time in the world to fiddle with menus.

But for the rest of us this game might as well not have any PC driven economy because there is no AH.
MW definitely does not add anything to the game experience for players like me in fact it's one of the reasons why I haven't played this game for months.

Yeah gatherers and crafters have all the time in the world to "fiddle with menus" lol because gathering & crafting doesn't take just as much time as a battle job. They defend the wards because they like wasting their own time, not because they would rather control their own prices than hand them over to RMT who actually have all the time in the world to "fiddle with menus" and control entire markets.

It adds to the game a system of buying & selling that anyone can access and utilize, but can't be completely dominated by RMT transactions, or bots buying low and selling high. RMT (and players alike) can do this, but it requires effort. Not just "fiddling with menus" and standing in one spot. It's much harder for RMT to control the prices without a price history, because anyone can come along and undercut them. They could be buying more rapidly than they are selling - and someone has to be jogging all around the wards in order to counter it.

Don't worry about that, though. Don't worry that RMT will drive consumable prices into the ground so that no one else but RMT can compete in that market, or that they will drive the costs of non-consumables up. We should just let them do that, because that's how to run a successful economy. Right?

[Seif]

Yeah gatherers and crafters have all the time in the world to "fiddle with menus" lol because gathering & crafting doesn't take just as much time as a battle job. They defend the wards because they like wasting their own time, not because they would rather control their own prices than hand them over to RMT who actually have all the time in the world to "fiddle with menus" and control entire markets.

It adds to the game a system of buying & selling that anyone can access and utilize, but can't be completely dominated by RMT transactions, or bots buying low and selling high. RMT (and players alike) can do this, but it requires effort. Not just "fiddling with menus" and standing in one spot. It's much harder for RMT to control the prices without a price history, because anyone can come along and undercut them. They could be buying more rapidly than they are selling - and someone has to be jogging all around the wards in order to counter it.

Don't worry about that, though. Don't worry that RMT will drive consumable prices into the ground so that no one else but RMT can compete in that market, or that they will drive the costs of non-consumables up. We should just let them do that, because that's how to run a successful economy. Right?

Right!
Because gear is way too cheap in this game compared to useless consumables anyway.
THANK GOD for rmt in XI at least that game has done it right. When I have money I actually feel it's impact on my gameplay. Not so in this game.

[Amineri]

Just sound like an AH to be no matter how you dice it.
It's always the gatherers and crafters who defend MW because they have all the time in the world to fiddle with menus.

But for the rest of us this game might as well not have any PC driven economy because there is no AH.
MW definitely does not add anything to the game experience for players like me in fact it's one of the reasons why I haven't played this game for months.

I guess we must be speaking a different language .

How did what I proposed translate into your head as "auction house" ? It didn't have anything to do with a bidding system. Unless, of course, by "auction house" you mean a non-bidding, menu-driven system?

If so, just come out and say it, please.

The problem with a completely menu-driven system is that it fails the last test. Not to eliminate monopolizing at all costs (by making the game unplayable), but to mitigate its effects to the point where the game is still enjoyable to as many people as possible (excepting possibly those people whose goal is to monopolize the economy and ruin everyone else's experience).

Finally ..... if you haven't played the game in months ... how do you even know what we are talking about?

[Shai]

Shai, I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. And this is speaking as a someone who thinks of herself as a crafter / gatherer first and foremost.

The market system should NOT cater to crafters and gatherers first, imho. It should serve all players equally, whether supplier or consumers, buyers or sellers. Setting up crafters and gatherers to have fun at the expense of combat classes won't lead to a fun game.

Let me take a stab at a Matsui-san style mission statement for the market system (which could include the current market wards, a simplified menu-driven interface, or a true bidding-style auction house, or whatever crazy scheme gets cooked up).

The goal of the market system is to provide tools to:

• Efficiently match buyers and sellers
• Allow mutually satisfactory prices to be quickly determined
• Minimize the impact of market manipulation forces

That buyers should be able to find their wares quickly and efficiently?
This doesn't benefit the crafter/gatherer how?

My statement was meant to say we should protect the producers from RMT as opposed to give it to RMT so that battle-oriented players can find their arrows 1 minute faster. Perhaps I lost focus. There is no good reason to sacrifice the entire market to RMT just so people who don't craft/gather can find their gear ever-so-slightly faster.

[Amineri]

That buyers should be able to find their wares quickly and efficiently?
This doesn't benefit the crafter/gatherer how?

My statement was meant to say we should protect the producers from RMT as opposed to give it to RMT so that battle-oriented players can find their arrows 1 minute faster. Perhaps I lost focus. There is no good reason to sacrifice the entire market to RMT just so people who don't craft/gather can find their gear ever-so-slightly faster.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

I guess what it boils down to is the following:

• Some people want maximal ease in satisfying their whim to buy whatever they want, regardless of any other consequences.
• Some people want to be able to sell for whatever prices they so choose, thus accumulating power and prestige for themselves, regardless of any other consequences.

In my haste, it seemed like you were stating that the ability to sell easily was more important than the ability to buy easily (not that I lumped you into the latter category, but others might interpret it that way <3).

I agree that we need to protect the producers from monopolizing forces (I use this term which includes most RMT, but is not exclusive to them). However, protecting consumers from these same forces is just as important.

The current market system is imbalanced in representing only sellers and not buyers. Fixing 'seek item' (and fix 'repair item' while at it), adding a delivery system (with 'convenience fees'), and addressing the gil imbalances are probably the highest priority issues. Unfortunately, addressing gil imbalances probably requires new content, which is being delayed until the battle system is implemented. What a mess...

In the end, the reality is, there is no perfect system. If a system is too easy to buy and sell, it is inherently too easy to manipulate. However, I probably won't be able to convince even 1% of the players that this is true, so can only hope the the developers keep their wits about them!