Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[Kiara]

And therein lies the crux of the problem. What's the best way to tackle the issues of power creep & content? How can we give players who want to have the activities they enjoy remain relevant without things becoming stagnant for those who want something new? There are way too many people on here arguing for 1 side or the other, when it's a false choice to begin with. There are plenty of other issues as well, but I feel these are the most pressing by far in terms of the long-term health of the game.

I don't want to see older events and gear simply thrown away each update - I liked having a persistent goal in XI, gear to work toward that I knew wasn't just going to become trash shortly after getting it. That made getting friends together to go after it easier and more exciting. XI did a pretty good job of making the content fun (for the most part anyway) even if the drop rates were generally crap (it wasn't all smiles and sunshine, I did a loooooot of complaining over XI back in the day so no, it's not all rose-tinted nostalgia so please stop insinuating that.)

I don't see why that necessarily has to conflict with folks wanted to experience new content and go after new shinies on some kind of regular basis either, though. Doing it every patch is a bit much though. It's like the people who spend $800 on the new iPhone, only to ditch it for the next model that comes out. That really shouldn't be the standard.

Furthermore, why is it us XI vets are the jerks, exactly? Where are you pulling this whole notion that we simply want to hold the rest of you back for our own gratification from? If you actually played XI you'd know that you were never forced to do any one event, that was the whole point of horizontal progression - to give people options for what they wanted to do. It only sucked if you really wanted a specific item and hated the event, and generally that wasn't a fault of the content's design so much as the devs just relying too goddamn much on the RNG and beyond crappy drop rates.

How about looking at yourselves the condescending attitudes that have been directed at us? How about stopping with the finger pointing and name calling. What is so horrible and wrong about having a sense of accomplishment? It's hilarious how some people on these forums whine about the game being easy mode, and that everything is spoon fed to us and then turn around crying that Titan is too hard, or that they have to have their new shinies right away because they already got bored with their current ones.

THAT is precisely why Chains of Promathia was so brutally difficult for people who didn't take the time to learn the game and prepare for each mission accordingly. The fights were challenging but not impossible for a dedicated group that actually bothered to find out what they needed to do, like farming polymers for the airship battle or salts for the bomb etc. It also kept the bad kids out of end game until they learned to be better at the game, if ever.

I'm all for accessibility, it IS still a game after all and should be treated as such. But maybe we need to have a more serious separation of content - stuff purposely designed for the average player, and then events tailored to the serious/hardcore crowd. Right now Coil is the only form of the latter and even then it's not really the case; Enemies were generally pretty OP in XI, but it did at least force us to make the most of our tools. XIV seems to simply just rely on nonsense like landslide where if 1 person doesn't move fast enough, it screws everyone over. There's no skill in that, especially when lag can be a major factor. That's just as dumb as Pandemonium Warden spamming astral flow over and over or Absolute Virtue having access to every single Super Ability.

Hi NefGP,

Great post. I totally agree.

No one in favor of Horizontal Progression is asking for SE to keep it that way forever, but there should be *some* Horizontal Progression and enough time to allow more than the top 1% of players to earn, use and relish their newest gear, before it all becomes invalidated.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a sense of accomplishment looking at the RPG Roots.

For those only wanting Vertical Progression, how would you feel if Yoshi P released a weekly patch raising the Item Level and making last week's gear worthless? I know it's an extreme example, but at some point, even for Vertical Progression lovers, it becomes silly.

Besides the top FCs out there, it would probably take a solid 1 - 2 months to clear the latest "hardest content" (e.g., Coil 1 - 5, Extreme Primals), and then beyond that, dealing with the Random Number Generator to get the drops you actually want (and/or what place in line you are with your FC to receive drops), etc., which is probably another month or 2, let alone finishing up a full set of whatever highest gear set is released. Then what about your 2nd or 3rd Job and gearing that up?

At this pace (with 2.2) of about 6 months (and that's with a month delayed to Server upgrades / transfers, etc.), most average to veteran players wouldn't be close to done, or if they were, they'd have all of, maybe, a few weeks to a 1 month or so(?) to actually use and relish their rewards, before it's all invalidated by the next major patch?

This just isn't healthy. Ultimately, a lot of players come to Final Fantasy XIV because of the name of "Final Fantasy" and the hopes of some RPG aspects in this game. Having a long term goal, finally earning it, and being able to enjoy it for a little while at least, before it becomes worthless isn't too much to ask. Especially if you can use it to help you flesh out your 2nd, 3rd, 4th Jobs, and help out fellow FC / LS / Friends in the game to reach their goals.

Thanks.

[Bufkus]

Hi NefGP,
For those only wanting Vertical Progression, how would you feel if Yoshi P released a weekly patch raising the Item Level and making last week's gear worthless? I know it's an extreme example, but at some point, even for Vertical Progression lovers, it becomes silly.

I'm sorry, but this is totally asinine. There is a HUGE difference between seeing new vertical progression every 6 months vs seeing it every week.

[Velhart]

For those only wanting Vertical Progression, how would you feel if Yoshi P released a weekly patch raising the Item Level and making last week's gear worthless? I know it's an extreme example, but at some point, even for Vertical Progression lovers, it becomes silly.

Lets go to the other extreme. Lets say gear lasts 7-8 years before something superior comes. How many would still be playing today? At some point, horizontal progression becomes silly. As a FFXI player from 2003-2010 and endured all the hardships and play styles, I cannot go back to this type of thing. I need a new goal every few months, I like to explore new dungeons, take on new bosses, and explore new areas at a reasonable pace. FFXI did a fine job abusing the RNG/low drop rate system to keep you going, but it doesn't work as well in modern times. Look at 1.xx, CC/AV were the only dungeons to play for 9-10 months. People got sick of it within 3-4 months, people hated progress being haltered by extremely low RNG. It caused people to quit. You can't expect people today to play only certain content for a long period of time. Making long period content creates these frustrating RNG systems that do cause people to quit.

Things like vertical progression are popular over horizontal is because people naturally like feeling like they are making progress in something every day. Creating horizontal means you have to drastically hold back the rate on how people progress, which in the long run, makes it feel less appealing to people. This was a major complaint with friends of mine who played other MMO's during FFXI's prime and could not get into it. Extreme horizontal (which FFXI was) is a very unique taste that only few realistically enjoy. Making content intentionally last the long run pretty much shows that the developers don't have many ideas going on and dragging on content seems like lazy development. FFXI gets a pass on this because of PS2 limitations, it can't bring out content at the pace ARR does. So it recycles content and adding new rules in certain content, or reusing areas to make new content (Abyssea, WoTG). Gear rarely gets put in because adding pieces constantly would take up a lot of space on what little that PS2 HDD has. So the majority of new gear that does come out is a recolor or slightly altered design of current gear. Its not to say it is 100% the reason, but development and concepts of FFXI were built around knowing they had to work with limited space and knowing they could only go a certain extent on adding new content.

It was fun for what it was, but player mentality does not favor this play style anymore and the only people I see complain about a lack of horizontal progression is FFXI players. You can point a finger at me and call me out, but I am pretty sure SE did some thorough studying of what play styles people prefer, including their current fan base at the time before making decisions that led to the game we play today.

During my play of FFXI, going through sky/sea every day, hunting down NM's to get the items to unlock the bigger bosses, or any content like Dynamis. I never truly felt achievement in gaining an item, more like relief. For the amount of time and effort I put in, I always felt obligated to get what I am looking for, not held back by other players necessarily, but the rules of the game were pretty punishing. I never felt like my effort and reward were ever properly balanced. I could go weeks without making any form of gear progress on my jobs. Some may be able to endure this, and I did, but the average player today will not settle for that. When people argue that "They will get use to it", they won't. Even FFXI players (least the ones I played with) were only truly tied to the FF name itself, and found certain requirements and time sinks beyond ridiculous.

I say all these negative things, but did I hate FFXI? Of course not, for all the things me and my friends dealt with over the years, we did enjoy aspects. Such as a colorful world, an interesting job system, combat (for it's time) was fun, really well written story, and so on. Stuff like Assault and Nyzul Isle were really fun, their only issue was the balance of reward and effort. Travel a 100-foot tower just for nothing to drop, content that was relatively difficult and took a lot of effort to accomplish, just for nothing to drop. A sad tale indeed for anyone.

It isn't fair to say nothing from FFXI wouldn't work in FFXIV. I personally would like to see content like Nyzul Isle and utilize the guildleve system to expand upon open world content. I'd like to see jobs like Samurai and Corsair make it's way to FFXIV with it's own take on it. I'd like to see Chocobo Racing return. They are ideas I like and I believe can work in the context of FFXIV's built and established system.

I do find SE's current system is in the right direction, despite some small flaws. They are making vertical progression with a small mix of horizontal, by offering various content that drops high tier. Rather it be raids, primals, crafting, or mythology farming, there is various ways to make progress during the day. This to me really feels like a "having your cake, and eating is also" scenario. Of course some in here will not agree with me.

You are 100% obligated to your opinion if you favor FFXI's style over ARR's. However, all argument in here is completely theoretical and realistically the developers would not completely change and alter the concepts and mechanics of the game. They already have development in content all the way to the expansion, which is also in development also right now. I also hear the argument "FFXI isn't what is use to be, I wanted FFXIV to be the answer to it." Well, reality check, it isn't, and likely not going to be if you are that dissatisfied with the system. Like I said before, the only FFXI experience you are going to get is in FFXI itself. I already see the FFXI developers trying to bring some old content back. You would have a better chance of getting your style of FFXI back by going to their forum and expressing your dissatisfaction for the direction it took.

ARR is it's own thing, it had no obligations to FFXI nor 1.xx players in making a game suited for them. All they owed to us was making a quality game that befitted not only the Final Fantasy name, but the MMORPG genre as a whole, which I 100% believe they accomplished rather if you agree with me or not.

[Fendred]

Velhard, I don't think anyone is suggesting we bring back low drop rates and the 6 hour HM camps for an Ochuido's Kote. What they want is some permanence to the value of end game content. If we are going to get thrown for a loop every 3 months where the last content they released is going to become way easier to do, and the primary reason to do any of the content is to see the unique story thread for that encounter set (its an RPG after all), it doesn't leave much incentive to stick around to tackle the harder content. It really isn't about the gear or the achievements, but the fact that the payout for doing stuff is going to be devaluated relatively quickly. They are suggesting things like sideways progression because they want the value of the content to be preserved.

[Velhart]

Velhard, I don't think anyone is suggesting we bring back low drop rates and the 6 hour HM camps for an Ochuido's Kote. What they want is some permanence to the value of end game content. If we are going to get thrown for a loop every 3 months where the last content they released is going to become way easier to do, and the primary reason to do any of the content is to see the unique story thread for that encounter set (its an RPG after all), it doesn't leave much incentive to stick around to tackle the harder content. It really isn't about the gear or the achievements, but the fact that the payout for doing stuff is going to be devaluated relatively quickly. They are suggesting things like sideways progression because they want the value of the content to be preserved.

If you do horizontal, you have to balance how long it takes to acquire said item. Unless there is ideas I simply cannot think of, the best way to do so is low RNG and over the top time sinks to balance the longevity of the content.

The idea of devalue is all on your own opinion. I am not in favor of holding the same gear for a long period of time because I have some emotional attachment to it. I like that there is always a feeling of progression and no extreme road blocks. For many years I wanted a TP piece on my SAM that wasn't Haubergeon+1, an ugly piece that was lv.59 no less and couldn't even use the higher level versions of it. Ask how many people were disappointed that there was no gear progression past ilvl90 in 2.1. I felt a great sense of accomplishment beating all the content available in 2.0-2.1. I don't need gear longevity to prove that. The fact that I beat T5 in it's prime, which the majority of players have not is good enough for me. I look forward to repeating this pattern in 2.2 and so on. On how often gear gets outdated within a year can be debatable, but either doing horizontal or vertical, SE will never get it just right because there is no way to be right.

I have always said that people don't know what they want, they just know what they don't want. Make something one way, people complain. Cater to the will of the people, they still complain. Only thing developers can do is balance what is right and attempt to understand what people truly want, which is near impossible because I believe people truly don't know what they want anyways. You can throw me in that guilty party while you are at it.

[Kiara]

Velhard, I don't think anyone is suggesting we bring back low drop rates and the 6 hour HM camps for an Ochuido's Kote. What they want is some permanence to the value of end game content. If we are going to get thrown for a loop every 3 months where the last content they released is going to become way easier to do, and the primary reason to do any of the content is to see the unique story thread for that encounter set (its an RPG after all), it doesn't leave much incentive to stick around to tackle the harder content. It really isn't about the gear or the achievements, but the fact that the payout for doing stuff is going to be devaluated relatively quickly. They are suggesting things like sideways progression because they want the value of the content to be preserved.

If you do horizontal, you have to balance how long it takes to acquire said item. Unless there is ideas I simply cannot think of, the best way to do so is low RNG and over the top time sinks to balance the longevity of the content.

The idea of devalue is all on your own opinion. I am not in favor of holding the same gear for a long period of time because I have some emotional attachment to it. I like that there is always a feeling of progression and no extreme road blocks. For many years I wanted a TP piece on my SAM that wasn't Haubergeon+1, an ugly piece that was lv.59 no less and couldn't even use the higher level versions of it. Ask how many people were disappointed that there was no gear progression past ilvl90 in 2.1. I felt a great sense of accomplishment beating all the content available in 2.0-2.1. I don't need gear longevity to prove that. The fact that I beat T5 in it's prime, which the majority of players have not is good enough for me. I look forward to repeating this pattern in 2.2 and so on. On how often gear gets outdated within a year can be debatable, but either doing horizontal or vertical, SE will never get it just right because there is no way to be right.

I have always said that people don't know what they want, they just know what they don't want. Make something one way, people complain. Cater to the will of the people, they still complain. Only thing developers can do is balance what is right and attempt to understand what people truly want, which is near impossible because I believe people truly don't know what they want anyways. You can throw me in that guilty party while you are at it.

Thanks for the reply Velhart. I think Fendred's response sums up my sentiment more: It's about the payout for finally accomplishing stuff in current patch being devalued pretty quickly by another patch. I *never* want to see a return to crazy 20+ hour HNM windows where everyone's camping and people are botting to claim, etc. I'm not asking for that. I'm not asking for 7 Year-long windows either.

Horizontal Progression doesn't necessarily have to mean playing the same dungeon over and over with no new content. Just as a quick example (I'm sure there are much better ones people can think of): Instead of raising Item Level every few months, why not explore sidegrades that bring something meaningful? Like having a piece of equipment that had "Enhances Stoneskin" or "Increases Holy Damage" or something?

Why not have more than the ~2 same boring Stats that get swapped out (in our current Allagan vs. AF+1 limited choices)? Instead of just Crit vs. Spell/Skill Speed, have more Stats that can be affected and be meaningful. Of course, with Yoshi P limiting and controlling our Stats so much (so VIT and [Core Stat] are always fixed and never deviate), and with no real Elemental System (his choice again), there is very little wiggle room to do anything except vertical.

I'm all for more dungeons, interesting battles / scenarios to engage us with patches every few months; I never said I didn't want that, that would be great. You said that for you, "The fact that I beat T5 in it's prime, which the majority of players have not is good enough for me."

So if the fact that you beat a challenging fight is "good enough for you" (and we get new fights every few months with a patch), then why would it bother you if some of us are asking for the accomplishment / payout for clearing the latest and greatest not be devalued so quickly?

You're right that SE (and probably any company out there) may never get it exactly right, but every few months feels far too fast, considering the previously mentioned time to actually figure out the fight, overcome it with your own group of friends, then actually try and earn some of the rewards (let alone all of them) for your particular Job, and then trying to get all the pieces (and then some for your secondary, tertiary jobs, etc.).

It's like we barely have time to "breathe," before it's all "reset" again.

[ApolloGenX]

It's like we barely have time to "breathe," before it's all "reset" again.

It will always be like that for the people that barely beat content before the next patch. The benefit to being the slowest completers is that you constantly have content to work on.

[Taruranto]

Things like vertical progression are popular over horizontal is because people naturally like feeling like they are making progress in something every day.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain Bananas. Getting the CoP ring or Gembu's mitten, or Kirin Osode felt more like a "progression" than anything XIV did. That's because these items were rare, had unique stats and effect.

Compared to them, XIV is static as they come. "vertical progression with a small mix of horizontal"? Bananas! XIV is linear as hell, there is no variety, no interesting gears. Every set piece is automatically better than another because the only difference between gears is stats. I played as a SCH and I virtually had no Gears choice. Now, compare it to my BLM in XI, and there difference in gear progression is simply abyssal. Heck, in XIV because of the gear progression you can easily skip gears tier with no problem, 1-49 gears are useless, most CT is just there if you don't have the myth yet and it happens to drop. Every old gear released with old content is automatically made useless since the system favor the last level gear (Remember the Gears in 2.1 the new HM dungeons dropped? Yeah...)

It doesn't help that the game literally gives you free BiS for free via tomes and everyone has them, so where are you getting the sense of accomplishment and progress from?